The Gun Doesn't Matter

[CClassForLife]

12 minutes ago, SuperKing said:

Huh. Have you tried grip enhancers or chalk? I remember wondering about that when I first saw your first Open Major video and not seeing chalk on your hands like I would have expected.

 

I used liquid chalk from my rock climbing days and didn't like it because it gave me too much friction. It also added residue on my polymer Glock mags that fouled up the inside of the frame. The issue I'm having is applying the correct grip pressures to maximize pliable surface area and not necessarily increasing friction in the spots that are already in contact.

 

The glove is a crutch in the way that it fills in the voids of my grip quite well. I prefer a technique that is less strenuous on my forearm muscles so I can practice without worry of repetitive stress injuries.

[SuperKing]

@CClassForLife

So, speaking about grip-

From the past interviews you've done it seemed like having a good grip came naturally to you? Or at the least you never had to think about it.

Has developing your grip on your left forced you to really think about what really makes a "good grip" and develop it?

[CClassForLife]

28 minutes ago, SuperKing said:

@CClassForLife

So, speaking about grip-

From the past interviews you've done it seemed like having a good grip came naturally to you? Or at the least you never had to think about it.

Has developing your grip on your left forced you to really think about what really makes a "good grip" and develop it?

 

My grip was trash and still trash. What came naturally was an understanding that grip doesn't matter for the actual shooting part. This translated to me always having a decent accurate first shot. Long story short, I thought I was the bees knees in indoor ranges that forbade "rapid fire."

 

When I did my first doubles, I realized that my entire grip (pressures and hand positioning) had to be changed. My 2nd shot would be like a foot off from 5 yards away (yes that bad). Eventually, through many hours of trial and error, I arrived at the relatively "loose" grip you see me talk about online. However, that grip is only good enough for 9mm minor (~140 PF max). It sucks for anything more powerful.

 

Back to your question of whether switching to my left forced me to really think about what makes a good grip. I don't think I'm doing anymore thinking now than I did for my right. It's the same arduous process of trying a grip, testing it, and retrying again. The only difference is that I know what's wrong faster, and there's the added frustration of knowing how to fix something but not having the means to do it right away. Some things require time as one of prerequisites, like letting my right hand develop the correct pressures to provide the same level of control with less effort. Though there are some minor idiosyncrasies with the left hand like blocking ejection port with certain thumb positions or accidentally pressing the mag release with the shooting hand.

 

My statement that "I don't really think about my grip" is from me assuming that everyone goes through their own process so that it becomes unconscious to them. It's like someone asking me how do I speak English. I can try explaining it all I want, but the observer gets way better info doing it themselves.

 

The process I kind of go with is this for doubles:

1. 100/100. The first number is percentage of maximum grip with shooting hand. Second number is percentage of maximum grip with support hand.
2. Keep lowering the shooting hand percentage until maximum speed is achieved (basically releasing tension till I can split without feeling like I'm getting trigger freeze). So my numbers might be like 20/100 after this phase.
3. Keep lowering the support hand percentage until groups start to get noticeably worse. Optimal percentages might look like 20/45 after this step. Note that these numbers are completely made up for the sake of this example.
4. Change grip and go back to 1. This process never ends.

Edited March 16, 2022 by CClassForLife
Added a process

[CClassForLife]

Lack of posting due to new job and getting married. So shooting is third on my priority list.

 

That being said, my left hand is making steady progress. My perception of my current level for various skills:

• Draw: A
• Reload: A
• Close transitions: A
• Intermediate transitions: GM
• Long transitions: M
• Doubles: C
• Lateral movement: M
• Position entry: A
• Position exit: M

Note that my scale goes D -> C -> B -> A -> M -> GM -> GM+ -> GM++ -> EG (Eric Grauffel)

 

I just shot a local outlaw steel match where I was less than 6 tenths slower overall than the 2022 Texas Open CO champ, and it's clear that I don't have the confidence on closer targets yet.

 

Now that I know my single shot is decent, the easiest HF gain will be improving my doubles. I've been experimenting with various grip techniques and the Staccato C2 is NOT conducive to the index finger in front of the trigger guard variation. Long story short, shooting thumb and support hand palm fight over the same real estate that's made worse by the left hand curse of blocking ejection ports. I've settled on a modern grip plus applying liquid chalk to my support hand palm and backside of shooting hand. Based on my limited testing and slow motion analysis, my optimal doubles frequency is ~0.18s or if I can somehow split faster, then somewhere in the range of 0.11-0.13s (not currently possible with my finger and trigger weight). The issue is that outside of this sweet spot, my muzzle is oscillating way outsize of my acceptable cone of accuracy. Probably two or three dedicated doubles sessions will improve this from C to M.

 

I got some wild ideas for training beyond the GM level, and I'll vet them in the coming months. If they work, then I'll be at super squad level by October.

[Boomstick303]

8 hours ago, CClassForLife said:

If they work, then I'll be at super squad level by October.

 

With your left hand?

[CClassForLife]

48 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

With your left hand?

 

Yes

[SuperKing]

@CClassForLife

 

Looking back would you have done anything differently? Obviously, if you could have started shooting well with your left you probably would, but I mean your discovery/troubleshooting process.

 

Is there anything with your learning process that you have now changed or adjusted that may have hindered you previously?

[CClassForLife]

17 minutes ago, SuperKing said:

Looking back would you have done anything differently? Obviously, if you could have started shooting well with your left you probably would, but I mean your discovery/troubleshooting process.

 

Is there anything with your learning process that you have now changed or adjusted that may have hindered you previously?

 

I would have taken your advice to use liquid chalk sooner 

 

Also, there's a certain amount of time it takes for my body to get familiar with a technique that seems to be out of my control. It almost seems to follow this process:

1. Find a problem
2. Find a solution to problem
3. Test to see if solution works and realize that it only kind of works
4. Wait a few days
5. Test again and magically everything works

My best guess is that neural pathways are being optimized when I sleep, but I'm not a neurologist. The interesting part is that step 4 isn't consistent.

 

So far, I think I've been pretty efficient considering I was doing some really goofy stuff. There was a good week where I was practicing shooting two guns at the same time (two sight pictures simultaneously with different eyes), a few weeks spent testing one-handed shooting, and a month of left handed PCC work. Going forward, I'll be testing the goofy stuff when I realize I'm in step 4 of a certain process. Part of the wild theories that I want to test is juggling these waiting phases. Perhaps, it's more efficient to knowingly NOT do a technique well yet with the understanding that it's the right technique.

[SuperKing]

Hah- took me a while to find around to chalk as well.

 

When it comes to waiting a bit before testing again, are you actively thinking about the problem and solution or just trying to step away from it to "let it bake in"?

[CClassForLife]

3 hours ago, SuperKing said:

When it comes to waiting a bit before testing again, are you actively thinking about the problem and solution or just trying to step away from it to "let it bake in"?

 

In general, I would briefly remind myself here and there then work on something else. So I guess I quickly think about it actively, then let it bake in.

 

In other news, I got tired of the C2's ergonomics and the resulting compromises for left handed shooting. The big annoyances:

• Hot spots lead to calluses on the thumb where I don't want them. My thumb feels like it got hit by a hammer after every match.
• Non reversible mag catch results in using a lighter mag catch spring. This leads to unwanted mag drops when gripping too hard during live fire.

I weighed three options:

1. Just practice more.
2. JB Weld or epoxy to undo the factory trigger guard undercut which gives the mag catch enough clearance to avoid inadvertent mag releases.
3. Use a different platform.

(1) still leaves a question in the back of my mind of whether or not the mag will fall out. (2) requires me to do more gumsmifing on a gun that I'm already not particularly fond of. (3) gives me an excuse to try another platform.

 

I chose the last option and got myself a Sig P320 AXG Pro. No more silly thumb safeties to work around and it comes with a reversible mag catch out of the box.

 

 

[Reds_Dot]

You're gonna have to let me shoot it at some point. I am curious what those are like. I got to mess with Blanton's at his house but I never got to shoot it.

On 5/8/2022 at 12:50 AM, CClassForLife said:

I chose the last option and got myself a Sig P320 AXG Pro. No more silly thumb safeties to work around and it comes with a reversible mag catch out of the box.

 

 

 

[CClassForLife]

1 hour ago, Reds_Dot said:

You're gonna have to let me shoot it at some point. I am curious what those are like. I got to mess with Blanton's at his house but I never got to shoot it.

 

 

Absolutely, it will be perfectly setup for you too! Lefties unite

[Boomstick303]

On 5/7/2022 at 11:50 PM, CClassForLife said:

I chose the last option and got myself a Sig P320 AXG Pro.

 

In my eyes the best option for a P320.

[Racinready300ex]

I'd like to try one of those but so far I haven't seen one at a match. 

[CClassForLife]

Some random notes:

• Why did Sig choose to use 6-40 threads for the AXG Pro RMR footprint? Literally only CHPWS sells the Torx head screws. I tried using Allen 6-40 from Mcmaster, but they failed to hold even with red threadlocker. The CHPWS screws work perfectly though.
• LOK AXG veloce grips are fantastic.
• I think I'm about the same proficiency with my left hand now as with my right.

 

Now the most important thing, I believe VR is going to be an indispensable training tool going forward.

 

Equipment: Hot links to product pages, I have no affiliation with any products listed nor do I get a cut from you clicking it.

• Meta Quest 2 (no computer needed, it's self contained and allows you to run around with no cables)
• Better third party head strap (better adjustment and comfort)
• Gun grip controller adapter (gives the controller a more gunlike index)
• Automotive wheel weights (to mimic real weight)
• VR Practical Shooting (the absolute best practical shooting simulator out now)

VR is a great supplement to my normal dry fire. It's not going to help with gun manipulations, but it does help with transitions and stage execution. The issue with normal dry fire is that there's a difference between when I think I pull the trigger and when I actually pull the trigger. This difference is minimized through repeated live fire training, but it's ultimately something that comes with practice of actually shooting a projectile. I honestly believe that VR can minimize this error just as effectively with a far lower cost. I found it surprising that my in game hit factors were similar to real world conditions, and I would miss exactly how I would miss during a match. I have since fixed these timing issues and I feel much faster. In my experience, real world performance translates quite well to VR gun play. If the reverse is also true, then it's probably the best way to get to Grauffel-esque shooting outside of shooting 3+ million rounds.

 

[Nathanb]

I’ve dove into the vr training with the same package. I found that my ability to see more faster was remarkably improved after a few sessions working on it in vr. 

[Reds_Dot]

Do I get to come over and try that?

[CClassForLife]

1 hour ago, Nathanb said:

I’ve dove into the vr training with the same package. I found that my ability to see more faster was remarkably improved after a few sessions working on it in vr. 

 

Yeah, I had the same visual boost. This will be big in a few months when TheHumbleMarksman does a review.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Reds_Dot said:

Do I get to come over and try that?

 

I should probably come over to your place for space reasons 

Edited June 12, 2022 by CClassForLife

[crg]

I don't know if any of the VR units work with third party controllers but it wouldn't be that hard to add an IMU and whatever else is needed to an actual gun to use it as a controller. A 3d printed barrel or slide would probably be big enough to house everything needed depending on the type of gun and how much tactility you want from the trigger.

[YVK]

On 6/11/2022 at 3:01 PM, CClassForLife said:

Now the most important thing, I believe VR is going to be an indispensable training tool going forward.

 

 

I've never tried a VR headset in my life; do they work OK for people who wear glasses? Would the difference in index between VR handgun, which appears to look like a 2011, and a regular handgun, in my case a CZ, negate the benefits of VR training?

 

[CClassForLife]

24 minutes ago, YVK said:

 

I've never tried a VR headset in my life; do they work OK for people who wear glasses? Would the difference in index between VR handgun, which appears to look like a 2011, and a regular handgun, in my case a CZ, negate the benefits of VR training?

 

 

I have glasses. It comes with a spacer for people like us. The index won't be perfect because the Quest controller has a bulbous ring for tracking. This prevents the support hand from getting a perfectly realistic grip, but I deem it close enough. I simply dry fire before and  after each VR session to make sure my index stays calibrated. Otherwise, the grip angle can be adjusted in the game.

[YVK]

7 hours ago, CClassForLife said:

 

I have glasses. It comes with a spacer for people like us. The index won't be perfect because the Quest controller has a bulbous ring for tracking. This prevents the support hand from getting a perfectly realistic grip, but I deem it close enough. I simply dry fire before and  after each VR session to make sure my index stays calibrated. Otherwise, the grip angle can be adjusted in the game.

 

Thank you. I forgot to ask, I presume this is a stand in one place type of exercise since you can't see the environment around you, or you have to move? I read your "space reasons" comment above and started to wonder. 

[CClassForLife]

Just now, YVK said:

 

Thank you. I forgot to ask, I presume this is a stand in one place type of exercise since you can't see the environment around you, or you have to move? I read your "space reasons" comment above and started to wonder. 

Both. You can either choose to move in physical space or stand in place and teleport to each position. The max size is 15x15 meters.

[Nathanb]

1 hour ago, CClassForLife said:

Both. You can either choose to move in physical space or stand in place and teleport to each position. The max size is 15x15 meters.

I’ve been debating on getting outside with this but they say you’re not supposed to use in sunlight.  I just don’t have enough space to fully use what I need from it indoors. 

[crg]

@CClassForLife I have two questions for you if you don't mind. First, I was rereading this thread and you mention putting in an extraordinary amount of dryfire over a week or two. Do you dryfire with the same grip pressure you'd use in live fire? Are you mixing in exercises that don't require holding the gun? I ask because my support hand is pretty much toast after about half an hour of dryfire but I would really like to train more if I can do so without risking injury.

 

Second, in one of your youtube videos you mention being away from home and without a gun for some time during your meteoric rise to GM. I'm going to be in a similar situation soon and was wondering if you could suggest any other exercises you used to train without a gun. I have some ideas for training movement but it would be great to hear from someone with proven results. Thanks for your time.