Mark7 Evolution - Tuning & Troubleshooting

[CrashDodson]

Ya it was weird the toolhead was going up and down but the shell plate was not moving.  It could be due to me changing the index settings to fix the shell plate stutter.  But I dont think I should have to oil that rocker bar every 300 rounds either.  When I measured the pawl it was .075ish.  which is in the range in the documentation. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by CrashDodson

[tanks]

It is suggested to oil the rocker bar prior to each use. I'd also make sure that it is tight. If not I'd unscrew it apply blue loctite and screw it back on. BTW, for whatever reason it uses a metric hex wrench.

[CrashDodson]

I followed the document sent to me by support for tuning the priming system. The only thing I needed to adjust slightly was a set screw that determines the rearward travel of the primer slide.  I ran 300 rounds tonight without trouble except for the continued issue of primers sticking to the mighty armory pin. Out of 300 I had about 10 stoppages due to the decaping. The sensor should help speed clearing those once I get it. 

 

 

[CrashDodson]

I really feel like swage sense is only beneficial for people loading rounds that require a higher digital clutch setting, like rifle rounds.  What ever force is required to trip the swage sense I can not generate using pistol digital clutch settings.  Ive run it as high as 6 but currently have it at 5 since I am sizing twice.  

 

On friday I will have the decap sense and possibly the powder check.  

[tanks]

@CrashDodson I am running the press at 2,500 setting (in reality 2,200+ with the dwell set to 3) with the latest pins and used purple loctite as suggested as well. I am running digital clutch setting of 3 for .40 S&W, but all my brass are roll sized prior to going into press also use OneShot. I did have the SwageSense go off with the "ringer" message when testing but have not had it go off as I have the DecapSense that stops the press before I get to that station.

 

To be honest, I don't care about SwageSense per se. All I want out of that station is to swage and clear out debris in the primer hole that will cause a jam/crushed primer at the primer station. Once the swaging was set up I no longer had issues like the pic below after decapping.

Edited October 18, 2018 by tanks

[CrashDodson]

53 minutes ago, Thetimb said:

 

 

I really couldnt disagree more. If you get the swage sense dialed in properly you really don’t need an optical decap sensor. 

 

Any stuck primer would be detected by the swage sense. 

 

With the decap sensor the press stops on the up stroke....meaning I can remove the offending case with a primer still in it, without having to clear a shell from station 1 and from the powder drop.  While risking a double charge if I forget. 

 

When swage sense or the clutch stops the press on the down stroke you have to clear those stations.  Having decap sense will save me those extra steps and a lot of time.  

[CrashDodson]

Swage sense is really only useful if you were driving your press with a high enough clutch setting that not having swage sense would cause a problem.  If the stock swage rod is the same diameter as the swage sense rod, then the digital clutch should catch any primers/ringers that make it past station 2, which is how mine is working now.  

 

If you were running rifle with a really high digital clutch setting, then swage sense makes more "sense".  

[CrashDodson]

1 hour ago, Norm37 said:

 

From what I understand, the sensors are for the Evolution Pro.  How do those who have the Evolution detect these kind of problems?

 

Ps.  Now I am wondering if it might be worth the upgrade to the Pro just to be able to use all the sensors available?

 

I will probably never do the round count to justify automating the Press.

It will mostly be done by feel.  If your pulling the handle and the swage rod hits a primer, its not going to allow you to pull through unless your all roided up.  The point of the swage rod is to clean up the primer pocket.  If the stock swage rod diameter is the same as the swage sense rod, you should feel a ringer as well.  The swage rod is one of the biggest benefits of the 1050 over the smaller dillon presses, that and priming on the down stroke.  The Evo has both.  When I unboxed the Evo I was very impressed.  The build and the parts are of a different level then what you get with a dillon press.  Its a beefy SOB and so far has been easy to tweak/tune.  

 

If a ringer somehow made it past it would likely jam up the press in the priming station, because there will not be room for the primer.  Either way the press is going to stop and you will have a malfunction to clear.  The difference is with pulling the handle you will learn the feel of a malfunction.  Where with automation we are relying on the sensors and the brains of software to do that for us.  

 

If you sit down and want to load 2000 bullets then the Pro is a good consideration.  Regardless of manual or automated you want a primer filling solution thats not using pick up tubes.  The vibraprime is a poor mans option that works ok.  Until I get the primer collator someone would have to pry the dillon rf100 from my cold dead hands.   I personally load a 5 gallon bucket of ammo at a time when I have everything running well.  That way I am just concerned with shooting for a few months.  I shoot about 40k or so rounds of .40 a year.  

[LowBoost]

25 minutes ago, CrashDodson said:

Single pass..  sometimes I buy processed brass.  I wet tumble without pins. 

 

So, why not by-pass the decap sensor and any ringers will be detected by the swage sensor that also serves a second purpose?

You mentioned you would need to "spend time" removing any cases that the MA die pin gets stuck into. Regardless of where (upstroke or downstroke) it occurs, you still need to clear up the case. The only area I am still confused is where you mentioned the possible double feed, which "Tanks" mentioned and validated he's not getting any when trying to replicate the issue.

 

Unless the clutch is still moving downwards, I don't see how this would be possible? Perhaps a little tweaking would take care of this?

 

I am not criticizing your process... I just want to learn about the differences in process and needs and how a sensor would affect such a process. 

Edited October 18, 2018 by LowBoost

[mikamarj]

11 minutes ago, LowBoost said:

 

So, why not by-pass the decap sensor and any ringers will be detected by the swage sensor that also serves a second purpose?

You mentioned you would need to "spend time" removing any cases that the MA die pin gets stuck into. Regardless of where (upstroke or downstroke) it occurs, you still need to clear up the case. The only area I am still confused is where you mentioned the possible double feed, which "Tanks" mentioned and validated he's not getting any when trying to replicate the issue.

If the spent primer gets pulled back by the decap die, machine will stop by SwageSense. At that stage you need to jog the machine up, remove the bad case and check if there is already powder in the case under powder measure (if yes, empty that). And then continue. DecapSense would stop the machine at the upstroke, when you would only have to remove the bad case, no need to check case under powder measure.

Today I also hit problem with the MA decapping die, spent primers from Geco brass got sucked back in. Lets see how that can be solved... Not giving my MA die up.

[mikamarj]

I used my highly accurate analytical scale again to measure some more 9 major powders. It seems that so far all have had spread of about 0.09 grains, which in my opinion is still very good accuracy!

[CrashDodson]

Yes if the machine is stopped on the down stroke by the clutch or by swage sense. You have to jog up. When you hit end cycle the press has to finish its downward motion causing a double charge. Also this jogging up causes the case feed station to grab a new case. When you complete the cycle that case is pulled back in and crushed. 

 

So if a stoppage happens on the down stroke you have to pull the case from station 1 and 6 to avoid a crushed case and a double charge. If decap sense catches it on the up stroke. You only have to remove the case from station 2 and continue on.  

 

The double charge situation is a reason I have 1500 rounds I cant use because I am not certain I did not forget to clear station 6 after a stoppage. The powder check sensor would give a peace of mind in that situation. 

 

It's much easier and safer clear a stoppage by the decap sensor then by the swage sensor or clutch. 

[LowBoost]

36 minutes ago, CrashDodson said:

Yes if the machine is stopped on the down stroke by the clutch or by swage sense. You have to jog up. When you hit end cycle the press has to finish its downward motion causing a double charge. Also this jogging up causes the case feed station to grab a new case. When you complete the cycle that case is pulled back in and crushed. 

 

So if a stoppage happens on the down stroke you have to pull the case from station 1 and 6 to avoid a crushed case and a double charge. If decap sense catches it on the up stroke. You only have to remove the case from station 2 and continue on.  

 

The double charge situation is a reason I have 1500 rounds I cant use because I am not certain I did not forget to clear station 6 after a stoppage. The powder check sensor would give a peace of mind in that situation. 

 

It's much easier and safer clear a stoppage by the decap sensor then by the swage sensor or clutch. 

 

Got it. One last question if you don't mind. is the root cause of this issue mostly the spent primer getting pulled back by the decap die?

Assuming the decap pin issue is sorted out, do you see any other instance where this issue could be replicated? 

I understand the $200 decap sensor is a fail-safe for the annoyance. Just trying to determine if I should wait before spending the $200 since I ordered the powder sense since any double charges would be identified. 

[mikamarj]

2 minutes ago, LowBoost said:

Got it. One last question if you don't mind. is the root cause of this issue mostly the spent primer getting pulled back by the decap die?

Assuming the decap pin issue is sorted out, do you see any other instance where this issue could be replicated? 

I understand the $200 decap sensor is a fail-safe for the annoyance. Just trying to determine if I should wait before spending the $200 since I ordered the powder sense since any double charges would be identified. 

Usually it is just the primer getting pulled back. Previously, before getting Evolution, I have also seen couple of times the decapping die going through a weak primer, just making a hole to it.

I already have SwageSense installed and PowderSense ordered. After tonights experience with Geco-brass I'm seriously considering buying also the DecapSense. After all, it's just $200 addition to a €7000 machine...

[CrashDodson]

Ya my problem has been them getting stuck on the mighty die. When I was using the lee die sometimes the pin would work it's way up but that cant happen with the mighty die. 

[LowBoost]

I have been in contact with Wayne from Mighty Armory for another subject and I brought this to his attention.

I asked for his authorization prior to posting this information and he agreed, so here goes a summary of our conversation:

 

1- There's a lot of brass with odd primer anvils. It's not that easy to get one pin with 100% success from pull backs.

2 - He suggests users with automated presses get both the AP and Standard pins. One of them will work.

3 - Mighty Armory also have the .055 pin that can work but it is recommended to run it around 900 - 1000 rph.

4 - They are working on another design and testing different steel.

5 - If you run into the issue, try polishing the pin and if it doesn't work, file just the tip flat and it should work.

 

As usual, Wayne has been great and very receptive to feedback and more than willing to help.

@Crash - Get a hold of him. He would like to send you a new pin he's working on to test on the brass giving you issues.

It is not a pin issue.... it is the particular primer anvil.

 

[CrashDodson]

I have worked with him via email.  I have both standard and AP pins.  Same issue on both.  Ive tried polishing the pin.  I took a dremel and reduced the diameter of one of the standard pins.  This reduced the occurrence but I still get 2-3 stuck primers per 100 currently.  I have tried oiling the pin...spitting on the pin.  talking nice to the pin and rubbing the pin....

 

He did mention the .055 pin and the 1k RPH deal.  I dont have one of those to try.  Might be worth it...im probley getting 1000 rph now running the press much faster but having to clear stoppages.  

[LowBoost]

I noticed a similar issue with decapping some brass when I just wet tumbled, dried and tried to decap. (With a Dillon and Lee decapping dies).

I think the crud inside the primer pockets once wet & dried makes it harder to extract the primer. This (besides not wanting to clean my dies as often AND my fear of a detonation) was the main reason I decided to decap my brass first, then wet tumble with ss pins.

 

Many thousand cases later, I am tired of wasting my time and simply want to speed up the process as fast as possible. I still sort my brass and keep the brands I like. All others I have in 5 gal buckets and still trying to find out what to do with them. 

[tanks]

7 minutes ago, Norm37 said:

7 minutes ago, Norm37 said:

...I am curious about how many rounds an hour the larger commercial case feeder can feed vs the regular case feeder?

 

The roll sizer company says to run it at half speed or less if using a Dillon case feeder.  It is hard on the machine to run it without cases.  They furnish you a tube so you can connect it to your press case feeder if you don't want to buy a dedicated case feeder.

 

I am running it at the pace of 4K+. 

 

 

[MikeyScuba]

By accident I discovered that 9mm brass runs much better through the rollsizer if it's sized first.  I was depriming and sizing first, the thought being that it would make the sizing easier.  However on this last run I forgot to rollsize first so I ran the batch after. 

 

I find I usually get some cases that roll their way up along the way, some more than others.  This presized batch behaved perfectly.

[tanks]

The thing is I roll size in order to make it easier to full length size (and have no issues in the gun with Glock bulge etc.). Resizing first defeats that purpose, at least for me. Though, I am rolling .40 and have not had experienced the issue of the brass rolling up. Maybe tapered 9mm brass issue?

[Smithcity]

19 minutes ago, tanks said:

The thing is I roll size in order to make it easier to full length size (and have no issues in the gun with Glock bulge etc.). Resizing first defeats that purpose, at least for me. Though, I am rolling .40 and have not had experienced the issue of the brass rolling up. Maybe tapered 9mm brass issue?

Ditto. You want to roll first. Rolling often simply moves the problematic buldge higher on the case so it can be corrected during sizing. If you size first, then roll, you may end up "un-sizing" the top of the brass requiring yet another sizing pass to bring the case back to spec.

 

Best order is to roll then size. 

[CrashDodson]

Thanks.  I have talked to them in the past when they first released their product.  A buddy has a case pro and I wasnt that excited about it and was looking for other options.  I really dont have any problems now since going to the Lee U die.  The U die I have was modified by a friend, the turned down the opening in a lathe so that it sizes the case even farther than the stock U die.  Roll sizing also aids in getting more rounds in a mag for those that are trying to stuff 21 in a 2011 magazine.  

[tanks]

Speaking of roll sizing, and then full length sizing here is what it looks like. First 5 on the left are roll sized only, next five is roll sized, decapped, and full length sized and go fully into the Hundo case checker. The brass sitting on top shows how much of the case is roll sized, about 3/8th (and why you need to full length size).

 

 

 

[mikamarj]

It seems that itselataaja550's latest design works well! I never got the spring-thingy to work 100%, but on quick tests it looks like the 3D printed case feeder ramp works well.