Mark7 Evolution - Tuning & Troubleshooting

[SnowinOnRaton]

On 1/12/2019 at 9:04 PM, Smithcity said:

Regarding the powder drop accuracy discussion and comments on powder variation vs speed. Went and ran some tests. In the data below:

"Manual" = machine isn't running, with the tool head in the up position, I placed a case under the powder funnel, pushed the powder funnel up until the powder funnel hits the top of the powder die, then I manually actuated the rotary arm with my other hand.

"1k RPH BD:2" = machine set to 1000 rph and bottom dwell setting of 2

"1.9k RPH BD:2" = machine set to 1900 rph and bottom dwell setting of 2

 

The shell plate was completely empty except for one case under the powder station. I used the same case for each measurement. I also visually watched the powder arm fully rotate each time.

 

I only have a dillon and hornady scale, neither are great. Dillon always measured a bit heavier than the hornady. 

I'm running VVN340 powder in 9mm cases.

 

"MAX" numbers refer to the full data set for the particular speed from both scales.

 

 

Seems the drop is indeed speed dependent. I'm getting +- 0.1 to 0.15gr depending on speed, which scale you pick, and if you pick the compilation of both scales for a run (probably not fair). A 4.42% to 6.76% variation. I'd be happy with sub 5%. So for any given speed, the drop looks decent. The problem comes in for the "overall" analysis. Up to a 0.5gr spread or 11.39% variation. 

 

Usually when I start the press up, I run at the lowest speeds single cycle while filling the shell plate, making sure every station is working correctly. Then I let it run automated at the lowest speed for ~20 rounds to watch the overall press. If everything looks fine I start speeding it up. Looks like a great way to have an inconsistent load.

 

 

 

Thanks for doing this. It was good to see what other folks are getting. I’m running the manual Evo and I’m having a little trouble getting consistent drops. I’m loading 9mm. I’m testing with Hodgsdon CFE-Pistol aiming for 5.5 gr. Using 20 drops I’m getting anywhere from 5.29 to 5.78 on the extreme ends. Typical charge spread seems to be 5.4 to 5.6. Is 2 tenths considered fine for range ammo? What kind of accuracy do you competition shooters find acceptable? 

 

I’m being super consistent with my lever pulls. Made sure the powder arm is going through the full range of motion. I ran some tests with my Redding 10x and over 20 drops I’m getting 5.46 to 5.58 with 90% of those within .05 of my target 5.5. The Redding is a beast!  Wish I could modify it to actuate and just use it. I will say once Mark 7 improves consistency on these powder measures they will really have something special. The build quality and smoothness of this powder drop is amazing. The press itself is simply stunning. I’ve got everything else running flawless. Once I get the powder measure consistency dialed in I’ll be over the moon. I’m gonna try some tests tomorrow with Alliant Power Pistol but seeing as it’s also a flake powder and looks pretty much identical to the CFE-Pistol I’m guessing the results won’t be any different. Also, I don’t have a great scale. I’m using the cheapo WAOAW digital scale but double checking every charge with my RCBS 10-10 beam scale. 

 

Is anyone one here getting really accurate drops with this powder measure? If so, what powder and charge size are you using?

[Smithcity]

2 minutes ago, SnowinOnRaton said:

 

Thanks for doing this. It was good to see what other folks are getting. I’m running the manual Evo and I’m having a little trouble getting consistent drops. I’m loading 9mm. I’m testing with Hodgsdon CFE-Pistol aiming for 5.5 gr. Using 20 drops I’m getting anywhere from 5.29 to 5.78 on the extreme ends. Typical charge spread seems to be 5.4 to 5.6. Is 2 tenths considered fine for range ammo? What kind of accuracy do you competition shooters find acceptable? 

 

I’m being super consistent with my lever pulls. Made sure the powder arm is going through the full range of motion. I ran some tests with my Redding 10x and over 20 drops I’m getting 5.46 to 5.58 with 90% of those within .05 of my target 5.5. The Redding is a beast!  Wish I could modify it to actuate and just use it. I will say once Mark 7 improves consistency on these powder measures they will really have something special. The build quality and smoothness of this powder drop is amazing. The press itself is simply stunning. I’ve got everything else running flawless. Once I get the powder measure consistency dialed in I’ll be over the moon. I’m gonna try some tests tomorrow with Alliant Power Pistol but seeing as it’s also a flake powder and looks pretty much identical to the CFE-Pistol I’m guessing the results won’t be any different. Also, I don’t have a great scale. I’m using the cheapo WAOAW digital scale but double checking every charge with my RCBS 10-10 beam scale. 

 

Is anyone one here getting really accurate drops with this powder measure? If so, what powder and charge size are you using?

Good data point. Its possible I'm "one of the few" with a powder drop that is speed dependent. However, if this is a more common item with the drop, I have no idea how you manually driven Evo users could possibly have good consistent powder drops. Over an hour loading session I find it hard to believe any human will maintain the same rate / force of pull. As a result, I don't know how you could do much better than a 0.4-0.5 spread. Obviously the spread is going to change based on the type of powder. I would prefer any piece of equipment not dictate what type of loading ingredients are being used.

 

I agree, the machine is awesome. Now that I have most of the kinks worked out I'm really enjoying it. Powder drop could still use some attention. 

[SnowinOnRaton]

16 minutes ago, Smithcity said:

.... Over an hour loading session I find it hard to believe any human will maintain the same rate / force of pull. As a result, I don't know how you could do much better than a 0.4-0.5 spread....

 

Agreed. This seems to be what I’m experiencing and from what I’ve read it’s a common issue. I’m going to make sure I go through all of their trouble shooting tips in the PDF from the Mark 7 forum. At this point though I think the only one I haven’t tried is the cross hatching scratches on the face of the plunger (part number 201-1167 in the exploded parts doc) with sand paper. Also forgot to mention I’m using the Dramworx Glass hopper so I’m sure it’s not a static issue. 

[tanks]

On my upgraded automated powder dispenser on a Revolution most drops are right on the money with an extreme spread of occasional +/- 0.1 grain (mostly on the high side). I have not seen a measurement difference  running it at 2K, 2.5K or 3K  rounds per hour settings. That is with a setting of 4.8 grains of N320 on a .40 S&W. I do make the  power factor with 4.7 so not worried.

[Tanfastic]

Well the feedback from MK7 is that the inconsistency is from powder "splashing" back up into chamber during the dump because of the speed of rotation.  They're working on a revised linkage that creates a J-shaped rotation with a slower rotation at the bottom, which should help with that.  Because of the way the linkage works, you can't really do much as far as how fast or slow you pull the handle, other than making sure you give it a good dwell at the top and bottom to let the powder fully fill and empty, you can't really change the rotation speed of the drum based upon how you're pulling the handle.  I've set a top and bottom dwell time of 2 on the auto drive to do this automatically, and it seems to be doing ok, I'm not seeing huge spreads but about 0.2 gr running at 1600rph.  So bottom line, if you have a manual Evo don't beat yourself up about it being a problem of how consistently you're pulling the handle, it isn't.  The advantage of the auto drive is you can get it to be more consistent by tuning for the amount of splash back you get at a given rph since the speed is exactly the same each time.  Hopefully the new parts will eliminate most of the splash back, and then it won't really matter as much.  I'd like to see 0.1 gr spread ideally, I'd never give it a 2nd thought at that level.  I think most scales are no better than 0.1 gr anyway.

 

P.S. - This also means that testing the powder drop of the MK7 measure by manually actuating the drum rotation is completely useless, you have to test it at the speed that you're loading with a case in the station and shell plate moving at normal speed. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by Tanfastic

[SnowinOnRaton]

9 hours ago, Tanfastic said:

Well the feedback from MK7 is that the inconsistency is from powder "splashing" back up into chamber during the dump because of the speed of rotation.  They're working on a revised linkage that creates a J-shaped rotation with a slower rotation at the bottom, which should help with that.  Because of the way the linkage works, you can't really do much as far as how fast or slow you pull the handle, other than making sure you give it a good dwell at the top and bottom to let the powder fully fill and empty, you can't really change the rotation speed of the drum based upon how you're pulling the handle.  I've set a top and bottom dwell time of 2 on the auto drive to do this automatically, and it seems to be doing ok, I'm not seeing huge spreads but about 0.2 gr running at 1600rph.  So bottom line, if you have a manual Evo don't beat yourself up about it being a problem of how consistently you're pulling the handle, it isn't.  The advantage of the auto drive is you can get it to be more consistent by tuning for the amount of splash back you get at a given rph since the speed is exactly the same each time.  Hopefully the new parts will eliminate most of the splash back, and then it won't really matter as much.  I'd like to see 0.1 gr spread ideally, I'd never give it a 2nd thought at that level.  I think most scales are no better than 0.1 gr anyway.

 

P.S. - This also means that testing the powder drop of the MK7 measure by manually actuating the drum rotation is completely useless, you have to test it at the speed that you're loading with a case in the station and shell plate moving at normal speed. 

 

Thanks for this info. I can stop trying to trouble shoot this on my own for now. I’ll give them a call to see what they say about a time frame for a fix. Thanks!

[Tanfastic]

8 hours ago, tanks said:

 

I have top and bottom dwell set at 3 and getting the 0.1 spread as I mentioned at speeds of 2-3K rph.

 

Is the rotation speed of the drum programmable on the electronic dispenser?  

[tanks]

Not by a user at this time. However, there is a small IC board in the back of it that controls the drum and a huge black box (literally) and I do not know if it is being controlled by Mark 7 software or not or if it can even be controlled as that would require a variable speed actuator and not sure if the automated powder dispenser assembly has one. At the moment the only control I have over it is to disable it on the sensors screen and prevent it from dispensing any powder.

[CrashDodson]

It would have to directly correlate to the speed of the press and settings.  But that would be the advantage.  It should be able to adapt to speed changes in the press and keep the output similar across all speeds.  

[mikamarj]

2 hours ago, CrashDodson said:

It would have to directly correlate to the speed of the press and settings.  But that would be the advantage.  It should be able to adapt to speed changes in the press and keep the output similar across all speeds.  

I'm wondering how the digital powder measure, usually seen on Mark 7 Revolution, works?

The manual version, usually seen on Evolution (Pro), is actuated physically by the case, similar to any case-activated powder measure. This causes the amount of powder dispensed to vary depending on the speed you are running it at.

However, isn't it so that the digital one is controlled electronically, when toolhead is down the central unit commands powder measure to dispense a charge. And it probably does so every time at the same speed. So you shouldn't see speed-dependeng charge variances with the digital powder measure?

[tanks]

36 minutes ago, mikamarj said:

...However, isn't it so that the digital one is controlled electronically, when toolhead is down the central unit commands powder measure to dispense a charge. And it probably does so every time at the same speed. So you shouldn't see speed-dependeng charge variances with the digital powder measure?

 

The electronic powder measure is actuated by the case head via the separation of the top and the bottom of the powder measure. The movement of the rotating dispenser is electronic though.

[WarrenZ]

Ok I finally got time to start messing with the evolution that I got about two weeks ago. So far I haven't gotten a mighty armory die I did get a flyer asking for a video to get a discount on mighty armory stuff so not sure if it is a worthy upgrade. They did throw in a 3 die Lee 223 set so I guess that was the free dies they promised with the pre order machines.

 

What's y'all's opinion of the need for a primer or swage hold down die? Should I order those or are they a just nice to have? I have heard that you can use a size die with the decap pin removed.

 

 I haven't gotten access to the downloadable manual so that I can get part numbers for parts I am missing or will need extras of. Hopefully I can get the missing parts at the hardware store.

 

I can't wait to get this thing set up and running.

[Tanfastic]

On 1/21/2019 at 11:35 AM, WarrenZ said:

Ok I finally got time to start messing with the evolution that I got about two weeks ago. So far I haven't gotten a mighty armory die I did get a flyer asking for a video to get a discount on mighty armory stuff so not sure if it is a worthy upgrade. They did throw in a 3 die Lee 223 set so I guess that was the free dies they promised with the pre order machines.

 

What's y'all's opinion of the need for a primer or swage hold down die? Should I order those or are they a just nice to have? I have heard that you can use a size die with the decap pin removed.

 

 I haven't gotten access to the downloadable manual so that I can get part numbers for parts I am missing or will need extras of. Hopefully I can get the missing parts at the hardware store.

 

I can't wait to get this thing set up and running.

 

Depends on what caliber you're going to load.  For 9mm you really don't need any hold down dies.  My primer loading in 9mm is rock solid and consistent without one.  I do have the Mighty Armory decapping die and I like it a lot, works great and if you break a pin it's super easy to replace the tip with a new one. 

[tanks]

2 hours ago, Tanfastic said:

 

Depends on what caliber you're going to load.  For 9mm you really don't need any hold down dies.  My primer loading in 9mm is rock solid and consistent without one. ...

 

It also depends on the priming system. With the primer collator I have tried both the swage back up die and the sizing die at the priming station. I found that the sizing die centers the brass much better for the primer collator system.

[Tanfastic]

24 minutes ago, tanks said:

 

It also depends on the priming system. With the primer collator I have tried both the swage back up die and the sizing die at the priming station. I found that the sizing die centers the brass much better for the primer collator system.

 

Good to know!  I do plan to upgrade to the primer collator once they finally release the Evo version of it.

[Smithcity]

Need to provide an update on my powder accuracy analysis. Picked up a GemPro 250 and compared powder drops against my Dillon and Hornady scales. The EVO was running at 1900RPH with a bottom dwell of 2. It would seem:

1. The Dillon and Hornday scales have some drift and repeatability issues. 

2. The Mark 7 mechanical powder drop may have a more accurate drop than your scale can measure. Dillon and Hornady was reading a 0.2gr spread. The GemPro 250 read a 0.12gr spread. For a 4.26gr drop, I'm quite happy with a 2.8% variation. 

 

However, it is still true that the powder drop is machine speed dependent.

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2019 by Smithcity

[rougeqc21]

Just wanted to comment on die selection as that has had a major influence on the performance of my evo and on powder throw consistency. I am now setup as follows:

1. MA deprimer
2. Redding Carbide Sizer
3. MA Swage
4. Redding Premium Expander
5. Powder Drop
6. Empty
7. Bullet Dropper w\ Armanov seating helper
8. Redding Micro Adjust Seater
9. Redding Micro Adjust Taper Crimp

The lyman universal expander that MK7 sent with the Evo just could not get consistent pressure on the powder thrower or consistent seat with the 135gr RN Bayous I am loading. Everything else has been trial and error. 

[Tanfastic]

Here's a tip that I found very useful in keeping the flow of reloading going:  Add mirrors above the bullet and case feeders so you can see from below how full they are.  Mark 7 sells a clamp-on mirror that attaches to the hoppers, but I didn't feel like that was a good solution since it would interfere with filling the hoppers.  So what I did was get a couple small/cheap clamp-on mirrors form Amazon and clamped them to my ceiling above the press.  I've done two reloading sessions now with those mirrors in place and it's extremely handy!  They were like 12 bucks or so on Amazon, and there are a ton of different styles and sizes out there depending on where you need to attach them in your own reloading space.

 

[Tanfastic]

Just to add to the setup ideas, this is my current die configuration for 9mm:

 

Stations:

1. Case Feeder

2. Mighty Armory Decap

3. Lee Resizer w/decap pin removed / Swage below

4. Mighty Armory Hold-Down / Priming below

5. Lee Expander with Mr Bullet Feeder powder funnel bell insert

6. MK7 powder measure

7. MK7 powder check

8. Mr Bullet Feeder Dropper w/rubber band for drop tension

9. Lee Seater

10. Lee Crimper

[mikamarj]

6 hours ago, Tanfastic said:

3. Lee Resizer w/decap pin removed / Swage below

4. Mighty Armory Hold-Down / Priming below

In my opinion these should be reversed because:

1. swage hold down is a great die for... swage hold down.

2. sizing die with pin removed centers the case nicely for succesful priming.

[Tanfastic]

15 minutes ago, mikamarj said:

In my opinion these should be reversed because:

1. swage hold down is a great die for... swage hold down.

2. sizing die with pin removed centers the case nicely for succesful priming.

 

I may switch those at some point, but it's running so well right now I don't want to mess it up.  The hold-down was put on the priming station at the advice of Mark 7 Support when we were troubleshooting a priming issue, which ended up being a problem with the primer rocker.  I just left the hold-down there to ensure I get full primer insertion since my Tanfoglio needs below-flush primer insertion to ensure reliable strikes.

[tanks]

On 2/1/2019 at 2:13 PM, mikamarj said:

In my opinion these should be reversed because:

1. swage hold down is a great die for... swage hold down.

2. sizing die with pin removed centers the case nicely for succesful priming.

 

Yep. I tried it both ways and the way you said it above works best.

[Tanfastic]

23 hours ago, tanks said:

 

Yep. I tried it both ways and the way you said it above works best.

 

Thanks, next time I tear down for maintenance I'll switch them and give it a try that way.

[Tanfastic]

Received my Mark 7 BulletSense sensor yesterday and installed last night.  I couldn't find any install instructions for it on the MK7 web site or users forum, but it was pretty easy to figure out.  Now if my bullet feeder runs dry and I don't catch it in time, I won't have cases full of powder cycling through and dumping in my offloading bucket!

[tanks]

Congratulations. Once I had the bullet sensor put in I almost don't have to pay full attention anymore. I can dry fire next to the press while it is making ammo.