Draw Stroke Help

[Flea]

I'm not a competitive shooter and have only been shooting since Dec and have limited time with a holster. I've taken a draw from the holster class and have gotten some further advice from some range officers.

 

I'm using an IDPA-legal holster and was trying to do the draw in around 2 to 2.5 seconds.

 

Any suggestions for improving the draw with the hope of competing in some IDPA would be greatly appreciated. Two things that stood out to me are after clearing the holster, is the gun too low, and (in the side view) I sort of rock back as I press out.

 

Don't be too mean.

 

 

 

 

[anonymouscuban]

The good stuff...

you weight is over your toes. You look relaxed. No tension in your shoulders. Not too much head movement. Hands are moving together.

What needs work...

you're swinging the gun up as you mention. Gun should come up a little higher during the up stroke, then pushed out as your hands meet and you finish. Make sure you grip tension is the same as if you were live firing.

Practice slow like you're doing until you get the fundamental movements down and they come naturally. Then start to speed things up. Download a par time app to your phone and use it. Decrease the part time by a 10th of second. Once you're consistently hitting the par time, decrease it again.

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[bimmer1980]

I´d put the right foot a bit more back. That will give you more front to back stability.

[OnVacation]

good overall mechanics.  I tend to bring my support (left) hand over a bit farther towards the holster.  When I teach, I speed people up with their support hand.  The faster the support hand moves over, the quicker the strong hand gets a grip.  get good repeatable hand placement then draw.  It's hard to adjust grip once you're out of the holster.  a little less swinging, viewed from the side the gun should make more of a straight line from the holster to the aiming position.  yours is a bit of an arc.  

 

Agree with the comment on getting a par timer.  .1 second at a time faster makes a difference.  

 

I figure that for any action you need to repeat it 10,000 times to really ingrain the movements.  I'm switching from a DA/SA pistol to a SAO right now, and I'm about 250 draws in to my transition.  I still sometimes miss the safety or overprep the trigger.  It's about learning the muscle memory. keep up the practice.  

 

Go compete now.  Don't wait until you think you're ready.  You will learn more your first match (USPSA, IDPA, whatever...) than in a month of self-practice.  the clock is a mind game, it's a tool to get better.  plus you learn how to cope with the adrenaline dump.  good on you for getting guidance from ROs and taking a class.  huge props. 

[MikeBurgess]

So the big thing I see is you are moving very slowly through the whole draw sequence,  large portions of the draw need to be completed as quickly as you can physically do it.

 

Thinking of it like this helped me speed up.  

snap to your grip (fast as possible)

get a good grip (whatever it takes)

rip the gun up hard (fast as possible)

decelerate and clean up sights (whatever it takes)

 

 

[Flea]

16 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

So the big thing I see is you are moving very slowly through the whole draw sequence,  large portions of the draw need to be completed as quickly as you can physically do it.

 

Thinking of it like this helped me speed up.  

snap to your grip (fast as possible)

get a good grip (whatever it takes)

rip the gun up hard (fast as possible)

decelerate and clean up sights (whatever it takes)

 

 

That certainly is the goal, but at this early stage I'm just trying to get the right fundamentals at half-speed.

[OnVacation]

15 hours ago, Flea said:

That certainly is the goal, but at this early stage I'm just trying to get the right fundamentals at half-speed.

I worked with a GM for a while that broke down his draw into 6 different steps.  he learned to isolate each mechanic to remove wasted effort.  I say this because his goal was to perfect those mechanics at slow speed, then gradually get faster.  the trick was he had to continue getting faster.  perfect mechanics is good, but you still need to add the speed to figure out what part of the mechanics you need to work on.  your base form is solid.  start adding speed.  keep the videos going, you'll be able to spot your mistakes.  video review is priceless.  

 

I think what I'm saying is the half-speed fundamentals are as good as they're going to get until you add speed.  so add speed...

[MikeBurgess]

On 5/1/2020 at 2:50 PM, Flea said:

That certainly is the goal, but at this early stage I'm just trying to get the right fundamentals at half-speed.

I understand what you are saying, but I also think that there are parts of the draw where the biggest fundamental is speed,  as mentioned above there is nothing wrong with the mechanics you are using other than speed.  

[bimmer1980]

2 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I understand what you are saying, but I also think that there are parts of the draw where the biggest fundamental is speed,  as mentioned above there is nothing wrong with the mechanics you are using other than speed.  

... and i think your draw will change under speed anyways. If you snap the gun out of the Holster it will come out a bit higher, for example. That changes where your support hand will meet.. and so on.

[mvmojo]

Fundamentals look solid but I agree the gun should come up higher before punching out to the sight picture.  You're doing what I call "bowling", drawing the gun and moving it up at the same time you're moving it out.  Maybe putting your support hand a little higher on your stomach will help in bringing the gun higher before gripping and punching out.  But, everybody is a little different in their draw.  Set a 2+ sec par time and see what works best.  Shorten the par time and keep experimenting before you spend too much time building bad habits.  Once you get to failure on on particular method but the other still works, that's the one to practice, practice, practice with shorter, shorter, shorter par times.  But, be warned, in your first few matches (or maybe more!), when the timer goes off your IQ will drop by 50 points and you memory will be so bad you'll feel like you could plan your own surprise party!

[Flea]

2 hours ago, mvmojo said:

Fundamentals look solid but I agree the gun should come up higher before punching out to the sight picture.  You're doing what I call "bowling", drawing the gun and moving it up at the same time you're moving it out.  Maybe putting your support hand a little higher on your stomach will help in bringing the gun higher before gripping and punching out.  But, everybody is a little different in their draw.  Set a 2+ sec par time and see what works best.  Shorten the par time and keep experimenting before you spend too much time building bad habits.  Once you get to failure on on particular method but the other still works, that's the one to practice, practice, practice with shorter, shorter, shorter par times.  But, be warned, in your first few matches (or maybe more!), when the timer goes off your IQ will drop by 50 points and you memory will be so bad you'll feel like you could plan your own surprise party!

Yep,  I'm pretty sure it will be a sh*t show for a while....

[Flea]

Going a bit faster.

 

 

[waktasz]

Mechanics look pretty good. Have you started working with the timer yet? 
Just start whittling down your par times a tenth at a time and I think you will have a pretty good result. Start with a comfortable time and do 10 reps or so to warm up, then drop it a tenth. Do 10 more then drop it a tenth. Keep going until everything falls apart and then raise it back up a tenth, and you should be able to comfortably make that new par time. After a fews days of that, lower your "warmup" set by a tenth and then continue the process. You'd be surprised how fast you can make gains doing it this way.

Also, don't forget about everything else. The draw is just one component of the match, and the majority of the time you don't get to stand and blast from the start position, so practice draws while stepping to all directions too

[Flea]

58 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Mechanics look pretty good. Have you started working with the timer yet? 
Just start whittling down your par times a tenth at a time and I think you will have a pretty good result. Start with a comfortable time and do 10 reps or so to warm up, then drop it a tenth. Do 10 more then drop it a tenth. Keep going until everything falls apart and then raise it back up a tenth, and you should be able to comfortably make that new par time. After a fews days of that, lower your "warmup" set by a tenth and then continue the process. You'd be surprised how fast you can make gains doing it this way.

Also, don't forget about everything else. The draw is just one component of the match, and the majority of the time you don't get to stand and blast from the start position, so practice draws while stepping to all directions too

I have a shot timer app so I can't film and do the timer at the same time. I've been focusing on 1.5 second par time. What does "everything falls apart" mean to you in the context of dry firing indoors at a USPSA A zone target 20 feet away? Would it be when I can't get a "clean shot" in the A zone in the time? I'm going to order a real timer. Debating on whether to get the CED 7000 or Pocket Pro II. Not sure which one works better for picking up dry fire of a 1911.

[waktasz]

Neither will pick up the click of the hammer falling, but that's not important. 

 

What I mean by falling apart is that you start rushing to beat the par and your mechanics fall apart. If you get sloppy you're just teaching yourself bad habits, but if you take a time you can reliably beat, and lower it by a tenth or two, it will push you to start doing things faster and eliminating wasted movement. 

 

[bimmer1980]

Looks good. I find that stance still a bit wobbly. Maybe you put to much weight forwards, what leads to counterweight movements when you get the weight of the gun up.

Try not to move your upper body and head at all. Only the hands/arms move.

[MemphisMechanic]

Looks better than my first video would have.

Work on gaining speed with all of the above advice!

 

Two things to keep in mind for match days:

 

(1) Most guys wait for the beep to finish then react to it.. An easy gain of 0.2 seconds is to simply try to get your hand to the gun before the beep tone finishes, which makes you work on reacting fast. (That beep is 0.3 seconds long on many timers)

 

(2) Always do a 100% speed draw. If the first target is a very long 30 yard shot, many guys will perform a slow draw, and only hammer high speed when the first target is close. Get the gun up and out as quickly as you can. The additional time to refine the sight picture occurs after the gun is presented.

[Flea]

4 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Looks better than my first video would have.

Work on gaining speed with all of the above advice!

 

Two things to keep in mind for match days:

 

(1) Most guys wait for the beep to finish then react to it.. An easy gain of 0.2 seconds is to simply try to get your hand to the gun before the beep tone finishes, which makes you work on reacting fast. (That beep is 0.3 seconds long on many timers)

 

(2) Always do a 100% speed draw. If the first target is a very long 30 yard shot, many guys will perform a slow draw, and only hammer high speed when the first target is close. Get the gun up and out as quickly as you can. The additional time to refine the sight picture occurs after the gun is presented.

#1 is a hidden gem for sure....well played!

[Flea]

6 hours ago, bimmer1980 said:

Looks good. I find that stance still a bit wobbly. Maybe you put to much weight forwards, what leads to counterweight movements when you get the weight of the gun up.

Try not to move your upper body and head at all. Only the hands/arms move.

 

I think you're right. I tend to have a LOT of weight just on my toes. I guess I've convinced myself that "leaning into" shooting will lessen the amount I get pushed backwards after each shot.

[bimmer1980]

8 minutes ago, Flea said:

 

I think you're right. I tend to have a LOT of weight just on my toes. I guess I've convinced myself that "leaning into" shooting will lessen the amount I get pushed backwards after each shot.

I tried that too. I couldn´t see any advantage, other than standing very wobbly. Better stand very stable and relaxed, just push the but a tiny bit back, thats enough in my eyes, and push a bit into the gun when you really have to. Like if you do a fast billdrill or anything similar that could really push you back.   

[MemphisMechanic]

2 hours ago, Flea said:

 

I think you're right. I tend to have a LOT of weight just on my toes. I guess I've convinced myself that "leaning into" shooting will lessen the amount I get pushed backwards after each shot.

You have the forward lean right.

 

But stagger your feet: move the weak side foot forward six inches or so, then look down and bend at the knee until you can’t see the toes of that foot. Boom: forward stance with much more stability.

 

Most of us in A-class or so?

We’re now fighting to learn to bend our knees more and shoot & move from a lower stance. For entries, exits, and shooting on the move? A slightly uncomfortable amount of bend in the knees is a good thing. Might as well work on a low, forward stance right off the bat.

[limitedgun]

Ask yourself what can you do sooner, not where to get faster. You can get your hand on the gun way sooner. You can get your gun out of the holster way sooner. If you look closely you are making 2 movements to get your gun out. You are grabbing the gun and then pulling it out, make that one move. Can you get your support hand on the gun sooner? Can you get the gun on target sooner? To get faster you will have to force yourself past the limit of your function to see what it is. You will have to accept not everything will be perfect all the time.

[mvmojo]

An intersting drill is to just face the berm with no target.  At the sound of the beep, how fast can you draw and fire a shot into the berm?  Not aiming, not seeing the sights/dot, just safely getting the gun out of the holster and up so that you hit the berm somewhere/anywhere.  That's probably your're fastest draw possible (for now).  Let's say that's 0.75 sec and your draw to hit the A-zone at 10 yds is 1.8 sec.  Now you start looking for what is adding that 1.05 sec to hit the target.  Is it getting a good grip on the gun so you control it vs just getting it out of the holster and up enough to hit the berm?  Is it you not having a good index so that when the gun comes up you have to adjust to see the sights and get it on target?  Is it having to move your body or your head to see the sights properly once the gun comes up?  Lots of things to look at and think about.

[Flea]

21 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

You have the forward lean right.

 

But stagger your feet: move the weak side foot forward six inches or so, then look down and bend at the knee until you can’t see the toes of that foot. Boom: forward stance with much more stability.

 

Most of us in A-class or so?

We’re now fighting to learn to bend our knees more and shoot & move from a lower stance. For entries, exits, and shooting on the move? A slightly uncomfortable amount of bend in the knees is a good thing. Might as well work on a low, forward stance right off the bat.

 

I tried what you suggested regarding getting low enough in your stance to not see your toes in your lead foot and I must say it feels unnaturally low. To the point of it being hard to hold that position without feeling tension in the quads (which I gather isn't a great thing to have). I'm not the strongest guy in the world but I'm far from the weakest.

[bimmer1980]

7 minutes ago, Flea said:

 

I tried what you suggested regarding getting low enough in your stance to not see your toes in your lead foot and I must say it feels unnaturally low. To the point of it being hard to hold that position without feeling tension in the quads (which I gather isn't a great thing to have). I'm not the strongest guy in the world but I'm far from the weakest.

 

Maybe just play around a bit and try to find the highest position in which you can start sprinting hard without doing a dropstep. A bit of tension in the quad is ok, i think.