DQ Double Jeopardy

[IHAVEGAS]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I would say "sufficient" is not the goal. in the case of safety I do not want the "punishment" to fit the "crime" I want it to out weigh it heavily so the idea of allowing a infraction to happen is so repugnant that avoiding it is more important than anything else.

 

I think everyone agrees with all of that except perhaps we define the word sufficient differently. The way I see the question is something like "if a 1 day dq is sufficient (adequate, up to the task, gets the job done, 100% ok, like kissing the prom queen (no offense to the pcc folks), or whatever) more than 99% of the time, why is it not sufficient on the rare occasion of a dq in a multiple day match" ? 

[MikeBurgess]

14 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I think everyone agrees with all of that except perhaps we define the word sufficient differently. The way I see the question is something like "if a 1 day dq is sufficient (adequate, up to the task, gets the job done, 100% ok, like kissing the prom queen (no offense to the pcc folks), or whatever) more than 99% of the time, why is it not sufficient on the rare occasion of a dq in a multiple day match" ? 

But its not and never has been a 1 day DQ it is a Match DQ, the match schedule should play no part.

 

If you believe the number of rounds you get to shoot at a match is the defining issue in a DQ being "fair" then you should petition the BOD to change it to some sort of scoring penalty, think break the 180 get a 100 match point penalty or a 30% of match points penalty, I personally do not like the concept but it seems to be what people are asking for when they say that its not fair that a shooter that DQs on stage 1 gets a different penalty than one that DQs on stage 20.  

 

[Batmo]

Hey....we're not grading on a curve here.  A safety infraction is just that...whether it happens on the first stage or the last.  It's a DQ for the "MATCH".

[IHAVEGAS]

36 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

But its not and never has been a 1 day DQ it is a Match DQ, the match schedule should play no part.

 

As you know, more than 99% of the time, DQ's are one day DQ's. I do not know if the very rare case of a DQ on the first day of a two day match was ever considered. 

 

If you think it is appropriate to have a more painful penalty for less than 1% of the time that is fine with me, just my opinion that either a 1 day dq is not sufficient or else it is. For me the rule as it stands it is just another reason (besides time, lodging costs, food costs, travel costs, weather, and the chance that work or family or sickness could require loss of match fee) not to go to expensive matches. 

[MikeBurgess]

4 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

As you know, more than 99% of the time, DQ's are one day DQ's. I do not know if the very rare case of a DQ on the first day of a two day match was ever considered. 

 

If you think it is appropriate to have a more painful penalty for less than 1% of the time that is fine with me, just my opinion that either a 1 day dq is not sufficient or else it is. For me the rule as it stands it is just another reason (besides time, lodging costs, food costs, travel costs, weather, and the chance that work or family or sickness could require loss of match fee) not to go to expensive matches. 

Yes most matches last 1 day but it is still a Match DQ not a day DQ. 

 

" General statement not directed at you personally"

If the fear of loosing match fees and travel costs due to a match DQ early in a multi day match factors into your calculations to travel to a major match,  I suggest you work on your safety practices so they are so second nature that, that risk is so small you don't need factor it in at all.

[IHAVEGAS]

22 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Yes most matches last 1 day but it is still a Match DQ not a day DQ. 

 

Agreed, but it is a distinction that does not matter more than 99% of the time. 

[ima45dv8]

52 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

I do not know if the very rare case of a DQ on the first day of a two day match was ever considered. 

 

I've been fortunate to be asked to serve as RM at many state and sectional Level II's. As such, I've had to process many 'first day' DQ's. Characterizing it as "very rare" doesn't fit with my experience. 

 

It has never been a point of discussion or consideration whether that competitor could come back and shoot tomorrow or the next day. I honestly think if someone had asked I would have broke out laughing at the absurdity of the request. Of course I would gently explain after regaining my composure, but the answer would still be a firm No.

[IHAVEGAS]

3 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

Characterizing it as "very rare" doesn't fit with my experience. 

 

It is just numbers. Thousands of local matches, many or most higher level matches are 1 day. Those that dq on the first day of a rare multiple day match can't be more than about 1 for every 1000 dq's I wouldn't think, I would guess something more like 1 DQ out of 5,000 . 

[IHAVEGAS]

8 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

It has never been a point of discussion or consideration whether that competitor could come back and shoot tomorrow or the next day.

 

Makes sense, that is how the rule is written. 

[Schutzenmeister]

Based on experience as RM at several L3s, 2 L4s, and having worked 3 World Shoots, DQs tend to be more numerous at the beginning of the match.  Forgive the bluntness, but the chronically unsafe (and the occasionally stupid) shooters tend to earn their DQs early on ... typically in the 1st half of a match.  Call it Darwinism, if you like.

 

Nevertheless, there is no such thing as a "Day DQ." ALL DQs are for the WHOLE of the match.  It is NOT Double Jeopardy ... It is DRACONIAN.  It's supposed to be draconian!

 

Again, this is by design.  If you're so concerned about DQ'ing at a major match, the recommendation has already been given:  Work on your safety until it is second-nature.  Then go shoot the match and don't worry about it.  Those who have to obsess about safety generally don't shoot to their full potential ... So work on your safety issues and focus your time and energy at the match shooting your best!

[IHAVEGAS]

28 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Based on experience as RM at several L3s, 2 L4s, and having worked 3 World Shoots, DQs tend to be more numerous at the beginning of the match.  Forgive the bluntness, but the chronically unsafe (and the occasionally stupid) shooters tend to earn their DQs early on ... typically in the 1st half of a match.  Call it Darwinism, if you like.

 

And the first day stuff tends to get passed down by the shooters ("I heard 3 guys broke the 180 on that stage yesterday") and the r.o.'s figure out how to keep people out of trouble (if we put you here the shooters will know you are watching for that) and the shooters meetings tend to offer clues. 

 

28 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Nevertheless, there is no such thing as a "Day DQ."

 

If you re-read the original post I think that is sort of the whole topic of the thread. 

[MikeBurgess]

15 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

And the first day stuff tends to get passed down by the shooters ("I heard 3 guys broke the 180 on that stage yesterday") and the r.o.'s figure out how to keep people out of trouble (if we put you here the shooters will know you are watching for that) and the shooters meetings tend to offer clues. 

 

My experience is not that the ROs keep the shooters out of trouble, mostly what I have seen is shooters fall into 2 major categories

First are those that are too exited and amped up because its XXX championship match and just forget their basic gun handling. they normally calm down by the end of day 1 when they get into the normal match rhythm. 

The other is shooters that don't have much experience on stages with lots of choices and movement other than right to left or straight down range, they either are scary the whole match or their squad mates figure out that they need to help them not do stupid stuff. 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

43 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

My experience is not that the ROs keep the shooters out of trouble,

 

Could be my experience was unique. On a level 2 we had 3 dq's on the 180 the first day on our stage, after that the CRO posted us at the places where they occurred (stage was shaped like an A with the point down range, DQ's happened getting around walls at the bottom) and explained that the shooters would pick up on it, no more dq's on that stage but it could have been coincidental or it could just have been that the word was out. 

 

I know that some of the greats have shared stories about their dq's, and when you look at results some of the dq's are M's and GM's, and our president has not had a great run as far as dq's go, so I am not comfortable saying it is something that only happens to nervous or inexperienced shooters. 

[MikeBurgess]

25 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Could be my experience was unique. On a level 2 we had 3 dq's on the 180 the first day on our stage, after that the CRO posted us at the places where they occurred (stage was shaped like an A with the point down range, DQ's happened getting around walls at the bottom) and explained that the shooters would pick up on it, no more dq's on that stage but it could have been coincidental or it could just have been that the word was out. 

 

I know that some of the greats have shared stories about their dq's, and when you look at results some of the dq's are M's and GM's, and our president has not had a great run as far as dq's go, so I am not comfortable saying it is something that only happens to nervous or inexperienced shooters. 

When I see a match with one stage that has several DQs for the same thing I start asking questions like, was there something in the setup of the stage that was causing it that should have been fixed during setup(most of the time no but it happens)?  Was this type of movement or target presentation uncommon at the local club matches making it a first experience for many of the shooters (common)? was the local level ROing sub par causing a number of shooters to not be prepared for a challenging stage with fixed ROs actually watching for violations (more common than we would like to admit)?  

 

I do know if a stage has multiple DQs word gets around pretty quickly that there is something to watch out for.

 

I agree classification is not a predictor of DQing, many shooters of all levels when they get to a major match try to push beyond their skill level because the match is more "important" and that can end poorly, also shooters that get distracted and are not focused on the shooting end up having more issues (think el press talking to everyone about everything other than the stage he is about to shoot) 

 

 

 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Could be my experience was unique. On a level 2 we had 3 dq's on the 180 the first day on our stage, after that the CRO posted us at the places where they occurred (stage was shaped like an A with the point down range, DQ's happened getting around walls at the bottom) and explained that the shooters would pick up on it, no more dq's on that stage but it could have been coincidental or it could just have been that the word was out. 

 

I know that some of the greats have shared stories about their dq's, and when you look at results some of the dq's are M's and GM's, and our president has not had a great run as far as dq's go, so I am not comfortable saying it is something that only happens to nervous or inexperienced shooters. 

 

I've been at matches where the CRO pointed out something that was getting people DQ'd. Even that didn't stop it, but it at least got guys thinking about it and probably reduced the numbers some.

[Sarge]

46 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I've been at matches where the CRO pointed out something that was getting people DQ'd. Even that didn't stop it, but it at least got guys thinking about it and probably reduced the numbers some.

I have been cautioned by RM's to not do this. Not saying I never did it but in general I don't change my Stage briefing process once the match starts.

[Joe4d]

43 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I have been cautioned by RM's to not do this. Not saying I never did it but in general I don't change my Stage briefing process once the match starts.

lots of conflicting rules, responsibilities and traditions there.

Case could be made changing briefing doesnt present the stage fair and equitable. Although nothing in the rules really spells that out.
Also the coaching rule only applies during the course of fire. 
You also have the rule of thumb,,, "Dont be a richard"
Ive only dont a handful of majors, but by the time shooters came I was pretty familiar with my stage and could add what I needed into the briefing.
But I agree with one of the posters, if several folks are getting DQ'd for same thing probably a fubared stage.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

I have been cautioned by RM's to not do this. Not saying I never did it but in general I don't change my Stage briefing process once the match starts.

 

I think the matches I've work everyone got the same briefing minus staff. But staff is going to be different with traveling RO's. The issue was typically found before the main match gets going. 

[Racinready300ex]

16 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

But I agree with one of the posters, if several folks are getting DQ'd for same thing probably a fubared stage.

 

Not always. I've seen stages that have a spot where just about every shooter will do a reload moving right to left, right on the 180 and if the RO's are on it they will DQ a bunch of dudes. Does that mean we shouldn't have movement like that? Even though lefties need to deal with that at every single match they go to? 

 

Or is it more likely local matches don't have stages like that because the new guys might DQ. So even experienced guys don't practice it because for them it never comes up. I've seen similar with up-range starts that have you turning the opposite way you normally would. Some local club matches do not prepare you at all for what you'll see at Area or national level matches.

 

If 4-500 people can not get DQ'd but 30 did in most cases it's not the stage.

[MikeBurgess]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Not always. I've seen stages that have a spot where just about every shooter will do a reload moving right to left, right on the 180 and if the RO's are on it they will DQ a bunch of dudes. Does that mean we shouldn't have movement like that? Even though lefties need to deal with that at every single match they go to? 

 

Or is it more likely local matches don't have stages like that because the new guys might DQ. So even experienced guys don't practice it because for them it never comes up. I've seen similar with up-range starts that have you turning the opposite way you normally would. Some local club matches do not prepare you at all for what you'll see at Area or national level matches.

 

If 4-500 people can not get DQ'd but 30 did in most cases it's not the stage.

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner

 

 

[Joe4d]

My experience as well,  I figured out I could either work or shoot, not both. Staff day tends to not be good for match score. You get there early, tend to work awhile, shooting starts late, and u are exhausted or shooting in near dark towards the end.  Stages, briefings, get massaged.
Really if it was up to me Staff day should be scored seperate as a different match.

[MHicks]

The common dq I see is simply a right handed shooter shooting downrange leaning around the left side of a short in length wall. If the next shooting position is just a step or two to the right and then quick movement downrange, some shooters will get ahead of themselves and start moving before they have pulled the gun back and they'll break the 180 moving right as the gun finally gets back from the edge of the wall. That's also a spot where they may put an ro to watch for it. Just takes a moment of carelessness. 

[IHAVEGAS]

 

21 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Not always. I've seen stages that have a spot where just about every shooter will do a reload moving right to left, right on the 180 and if the RO's are on it they will DQ a bunch of dudes. Does that mean we shouldn't have movement like that? Even though lefties need to deal with that at every single match they go to? 

 

Or is it more likely local matches don't have stages like that because the new guys might DQ. So even experienced guys don't practice it because for them it never comes up. I've seen similar with up-range starts that have you turning the opposite way you normally would. Some local club matches do not prepare you at all for what you'll see at Area or national level matches.

 

If 4-500 people can not get DQ'd but 30 did in most cases it's not the stage.

 

Haven't needed to design stages for USPSA, when I was still dabbling in IDPA I have occasionally designed stages with the tricky elements included and out in the open for local matches, seemed to help. Doing it deliberately and being open about it (I've been known to name a stage things like "don't break the 180") also seemed to help with the 'blah blah blah, poor stage design' comments that you sometimes hear after a person has let themself down. 

I think watching experienced shooters do it right might have been more helpful than just the practice aspect. 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

lots of conflicting rules, responsibilities and traditions there.

Case could be made changing briefing doesnt present the stage fair and equitable. Although nothing in the rules really spells that out.
Also the coaching rule only applies during the course of fire. 
You also have the rule of thumb,,, "Dont be a richard"
Ive only dont a handful of majors, but by the time shooters came I was pretty familiar with my stage and could add what I needed into the briefing.
But I agree with one of the posters, if several folks are getting DQ'd for same thing probably a fubared stage.

Oh, I definitely add my own notes into the stage briefing as soon as possible at the beginning of the match. Mostly admin stuff though. But on day two 5 people DQ by breaking the 180 the most I might do is clarify EXACTLY where the 180 is, but I won't start walking squads around and saying you can't do this from here and you cant do that from there. Everybody should, in fairness, get as close as possible to the same briefing during the match.

[Racinready300ex]

55 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

My experience as well,  I figured out I could either work or shoot, not both. Staff day tends to not be good for match score. You get there early, tend to work awhile, shooting starts late, and u are exhausted or shooting in near dark towards the end.  Stages, briefings, get massaged.
Really if it was up to me Staff day should be scored seperate as a different match.

 

The trick is to find a job that allows you to work the match and shoot on competitor days. 

 

Staff day is brutal. I've shot a few matches where the MD had a side match with awards for staff, not really official but it was nice. It ended up being a team thing based on how you and the guys you were working with did on a pre determined stage in the match. It was a good idea

Edited April 30, 2020 by Racinready300ex