Single stack with a double stack 1911

[Overscore]

In reading appendix D5 in the 2020 USPSA rule book, I'm not seeing anything that says that a single stack magazine is required for single stack (as odd as that sounds).  I have a double stack 1911 with 16 round magazines (.45).  Can I use this gun in SS division with the mags downloaded to 8?

[usmc1974]

You can in IDPA ( CDP ) in USPSA it has to be stay single stack gun I do believe.

[Schutzenmeister]

See Appendix D5, at the end:

 

Quote

 

Special conditions:

Only 1911 production type pistols. Must be available to the general public and have their basis in the original 1911 service pistol as designed by John M. Browning. Pistols made from components that duplicate the factory originals are acceptable. Frames must be metal.

 

 

I'm reasonably certain the wording above prohibits what you propose … JMB did NOT design the 1911 with a double stack capability.  (Browning Hi-Power, yes.  1911, no.)

[Lee Cabana]

Schutzenmeister’s citation is the one I would use, too. 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Lee Cabana

[RadarTech]

I don’t have it at hand.. I’m not in the office at the moment.. but there was a specific mention of this on the last USPSA BOD MEETING.

Double stack mags are NOT allowed..
I’ll look for the reference.. but you must use single stack mags.

[MikeBurgess]

Just now, Schutzenmeister said:

See Appendix D5, at the end:

 

 

I'm reasonably certain the wording above prohibits what you propose … JMB did NOT design the 1911 with a double stack capability.  (Browning Hi-Power, yes.  1911, no.)

This gets a bit more complicated with the recent interpretation that a STI 2011 Staccato would be legal for single stack because despite a polymer grip it has a steel frame. If that is legal I see no reason in the rules that would prohibit a Caspian Double Stack  or a Para/Rem/RIA or heck for that matter a regular 2011 with a double stack mag. 

the rules do no prohibit a DS mag and the interpretation says a modular 1911 2011 is OK so a steel DS should be more OK because its even closer to the original than the Staccato

[RadarTech]

Ok Lee made me go sit down and look..
Since he made the motion... this is an excerpt from the Feb 2020 BOD minutes..




Motion by Area 7, second by Area 8, for changes to rulebook appendices D4 and D7, as developed from discussion. Rule changes and change logs attached.
Roll call vote: A1-No, A2-Yes, A3-Yes, A4-Yes, A5-Yes, A6-Yes, A7-Yes, A8-Yes, President-Yes
Discussion regarding definition of Single Stack and definition of Single Stack frame and magazine. Clarification to be made to existing rules by DNROI with support from the Board of Directors. In summary, while modular frames are, and have been, legal in Single Stack Division, only those in the 1911 style, using traditional single stack 1911 magazines are allowed. No wide body magazines, including those adapted to feed in a single column, may be used.

[MikeBurgess]

2 minutes ago, RadarTech said:

Ok Lee made me go sit down and look..
Since he made the motion... this is an excerpt from the Feb 2020 BOD minutes..




Motion by Area 7, second by Area 8, for changes to rulebook appendices D4 and D7, as developed from discussion. Rule changes and change logs attached.
Roll call vote: A1-No, A2-Yes, A3-Yes, A4-Yes, A5-Yes, A6-Yes, A7-Yes, A8-Yes, President-Yes
Discussion regarding definition of Single Stack and definition of Single Stack frame and magazine. Clarification to be made to existing rules by DNROI with support from the Board of Directors. In summary, while modular frames are, and have been, legal in Single Stack Division, only those in the 1911 style, using traditional single stack 1911 magazines are allowed. No wide body magazines, including those adapted to feed in a single column, may be used.

thank you, I did not remember the Bolded section, as the last argument on here was about the first part

[RadarTech]

thank you, I did not remember the Bolded section, as the last argument on here was about the first part

You’re welcome...
The RM Corps spends a great deal of time keeping up with the minutia here and doing all we can to help!

Jim

[Overscore]

Interesting.  I feel I could have made an argument against the vague wording in 

Quote

Only 1911 production type pistols. Must be available to the general public and have their basis in the original 1911 service pistol as designed by John M. Browning. Pistols made from components that duplicate the factory originals are acceptable. Frames must be metal.

 

because I could argue that my gun (Remington R1) is very much based on the 1911, and is more 1911 than a 2011.  It just has a wider grip.  The magazines are double stack, but the gun is just a wide grip 1911.  I could (not that I would, of course) manufacture my own magazine that has the same external dimensions as the double stack mags I have, but is internally just a single stack, and then avoid ambiguity.

 

With the clarifying words in the BOD notes, this is moot, so no single stack for me.

[Racinready300ex]

19 minutes ago, Overscore said:

Interesting.  I feel I could have made an argument against the vague wording in 

 

because I could argue that my gun (Remington R1) is very much based on the 1911, and is more 1911 than a 2011.  It just has a wider grip.  The magazines are double stack, but the gun is just a wide grip 1911.  I could (not that I would, of course) manufacture my own magazine that has the same external dimensions as the double stack mags I have, but is internally just a single stack, and then avoid ambiguity.

 

With the clarifying words in the BOD notes, this is moot, so no single stack for me.

 

That would be dirty and almost worth doing just for the lolz. 

 

Maybe someone can talk MBX into making a set. 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Racinready300ex

[RadarTech]

Would it be worth a bump to open?

[usmc1974]

3 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

See Appendix D5, at the end:

 

 

I'm reasonably certain the wording above prohibits what you propose … JMB did NOT design the 1911 with a double stack capability.  (Browning Hi-Power, yes.  1911, no.)

Technically, he designed it for a 7 + 1 magazine.  So an eight round magazine is not really what he designed it for!  or you could have a single stack 10-round magazine.  but, that would be limited 10.  Ooooops..

[shred]

Au contraire, JMB also designed the .38 Super 1911

 

[Schutzenmeister]

2 hours ago, usmc1974 said:

Technically, he designed it for a 7 + 1 magazine.  So an eight round magazine is not really what he designed it for!  or you could have a single stack 10-round magazine.  but, that would be limited 10.  Ooooops..

 

I seem to remember reading that 50 round Mags (you read that right ... FIFTY) were available for the 1911and used in arieal combat during WWI.  They weren't reliable or terribly effective ... but they existed and were employed.  

 

The "Special Conditions" quoted refer to the firearm, not the capacity of the magazines.  Magazine capacity limits are addressed elsewhere in the appendix.

[usmc1974]

9 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

I seem to remember reading that 50 round Mags (you read that right ... FIFTY) were available for the 1911and used in arieal combat during WWI.  They weren't reliable or terribly effective ... but they existed and were employed.  

 

The "Special Conditions" quoted refer to the firearm, not the capacity of the magazines.  Magazine capacity limits are addressed elsewhere in the appendix.

Good Lord, see this means I was joking.

       But that aside, single stack, means a single stack magazine,  not eight rounds in the double stack magazine.

 

Original intent

   The Browning pistol design was formally adopted by the US Military March 29th 1911 I was adopted by the Navy and the United States Marine Corps 1913  fed by a 7 round box magazine chambered in 45 ACP.

[Glockster1]

LMAO! They actually used a three foot long 50 round magazine in a 1911 in airplane combat shooting???  Hahahahahahahahahahaha!  

[Schutzenmeister]

Never said it was terribly effective.  Seems the Army brass didn't quite know what to with the new Army Air Corps.  The only thing they saw for them was observation ... So they were not armed.  The aircrews started taking fire from German aircraft and didn't like not being able to shoot back.

 

They started carrying anything ... Rifle, shotgun, handguns.  They discovered low capacity didn't work for aeiral combat.  Long story short, some mechanical type made some 50 round Mags for the 1911 and put 2 or 3 on each side of the observer's seat.  Still not wonderfully high in the reliability/effectiveness department, but it was a beginning.

 

The Army brass finally woke up and put machine guns on aeroplane's.  The rest is Air Force history ...

[Glockster1]

Lol ....and look at us now.......

 

Now we push a button and a high explosive heat seeking freakin' missile gets shoved up the enemy's azz.

[Gary Stevens]

I actually read of a WW 2 pilot who after having to bail out shot down a zero with a 1911. The zero pilot came close as the American pilot floated down and got a 230 hardball through the canopy.

 

Wonder if that counted toward becoming an ace?

[GrumpyOne]

40 round 45 ACP drum magazine.

 

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/866659786

[perttime]

Before you all get carried away:

 

7 Maximum size Handgun and all magazines

Yes , handgun with empty magazine inserted must fit wholly within a box with internal dimensions of 8 15/16” x 6” x 1 5/8” (tolerance +1/16”, -

0”) (8.938” x 6” x 1.625”) (227.01mm x 152.40mm x 41.28mm)

[shred]

The NRA museum in VA has (had anyway) some super-hicap (25+ round) single stack mags in a display case with the rest of the "oddities" like the Gyrojet and Bren Ten.

 

[davidb72]

I don't think that the referenced STI model should have been allowed in Single Stack division.