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"Detonation" and light PCC loads


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Has anyone heard of any issues with really light PCC 9mm loads that "blew up" instead of igniting properly?

 

I'm loading 2.8 grains of Sport Pistol with 115 grain Bergers and they function in both of my PCC rifles just fine, shooting about two inch groups at 25 yards and throwing the empties about four feet. I don't know of anyone that experienced it but I've read about it over the years and was wondering if anyone has any experience with it. I'll admit there's not alot of powder in the case and I'm not even sure if it's something that can happen with modern smokeless powder...

 

From what I remember hearing was that it had to do with the primer flash hole not being completely covered with powder when the primer ignites but it's been a while since I've heard anything about it..

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Has anyone heard of any issues with really light PCC 9mm loads that "blew up" instead of igniting properly?
 
I'm loading 2.8 grains of Sport Pistol with 115 grain Bergers and they function in both of my PCC rifles just fine, shooting about two inch groups at 25 yards and throwing the empties about four feet. I don't know of anyone that experienced it but I've read about it over the years and was wondering if anyone has any experience with it. I'll admit there's not alot of powder in the case and I'm not even sure if it's something that can happen with modern smokeless powder...
 
From what I remember hearing was that it had to do with the primer flash hole not being completely covered with powder when the primer ignites but it's been a while since I've heard anything about it..

H110/win296 have minimum charge weights for various cartridges that you do not want to go below due to detonation issues. I believe it tends to be with the slower burning pistol powders.
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Yeah, I don't know where Sport Pistol falls into the fast-slow powder burn charts......the last one I printed didn't even have Sport Pistol on it and it wasn't that long ago.

 

Update-I found the info!  Sport Pistol is number 21 on the chart and H110/296 is 87 and 88 so I guess SP is pretty fast..

 

Thanks for the info!!!

Edited by copterdrvr
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I go down as low as 3.0gr/115gr for my 9mm 1911 and 2.8gr/115gr in my wife's PCC.  Haven't had a problem.  This "issue" comes up periodically on various forums, but I'm not sure I've ever seen anything more than an anecdote and likely the aforementioned reference to a caution on certain powder manufacturer's websites.  I believe SP is consider to be "pretty fast"

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5 hours ago, copterdrvr said:

Update-I found the info!  Sport Pistol is number 21 on the chart and H110/296 is 87 and 88 so I guess SP is pretty fast..

 

Thanks for the info!!!

What burn rate chart did you find that lists Sport Pistol?  All the ones I've seen haven't been updated to include it. Alliant's literature says it falls between their American Select and their Green Dot so yes, it's pretty fast.

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First off-HAH!!! I've been reloading up a storm lately and have put together a bunch of.223, .224 Valkyrie and 6mm Creedmoor ammo using BERGER bullets.

 

 I use BERRY bullets for my pistol reloading!  😆

 

 The burn chart came from /loaddata.com/Article/burnratecharts/powder-burn-rate-chart. Good chart that had all of my powders listed EXCEPT for IMR 4451. It's one of the powders I use in the 6 Creedmoor. That's OK, it's on my old chart and it falls right between IMR 4350 and Hodgdon H 4350.

 

The chart follows your input as it has Select at 19, SP at 21 and Green Dot as 24....

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Detonation is kinda like cold fusion. you hear a lot of authoritative comments until there actually required to reproduce the event under controlled conditions and then its all about how difficult it is. Honestly I have never heard 9mm mentioned in any detonation discussion anyway, its not a case with a lot of extra volume to begin with. Loading below 125pf is pretty counter productive anyway unless your trying to come up with steel challenge load. Biggest problem with fast powders and 9mm carbines is bullets getting stuck in the barrel.

Edited by JsK
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30 minutes ago, JsK said:

Detonation is kinda like cold fusion. you hear a lot of authoritative comments until there actually required to reproduce the event under controlled conditions and then its all about how difficult it is. Honestly I have never heard 9mm mentioned in any detonation discussion anyway, its not a case with a lot of extra volume to begin with. Loading below 125pf is pretty counter productive anyway unless your trying to come up with steel challenge load. Biggest problem with fast powders and 9mm carbines is bullets getting stuck in the barrel.

 

Don't know the powder or load, but a friend did manage to blow up a Glock with an undercharge.

 An no, he wasn't anxious to repeat that as an experiment. 😀

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Without alittle more info this doesn't help much. Was it because he had a squib load and fired another round behind it? I saw a clip of a guy shooting a Glockin a USPSA match and got caught up in the stage and put another round down the tube after a squib-blew the hell out of the pistol.

Edited by copterdrvr
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20 hours ago, copterdrvr said:

Without alittle more info this doesn't help much. Was it because he had a squib load and fired another round behind it? I saw a clip of a guy shooting a Glockin a USPSA match and got caught up in the stage and put another round down the tube after a squib-blew the hell out of the pistol.

 

No, the guy is a long-time competitor and reloader.  He loaded his own rounds, and apparently used too little powder.  It wasn't a squib followed by a normal round, it was a detonation.

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On 4/7/2020 at 10:31 AM, JsK said:

Detonation is kinda like cold fusion. you hear a lot of authoritative comments until there actually required to reproduce the event under controlled conditions and then its all about how difficult it is. Honestly I have never heard 9mm mentioned in any detonation discussion anyway, its not a case with a lot of extra volume to begin with. Loading below 125pf is pretty counter productive anyway unless your trying to come up with steel challenge load. Biggest problem with fast powders and 9mm carbines is bullets getting stuck in the barrel.

 

This! 

 

A noted cowboy competitor blew up 2 pistols with "under-charged" detonations, but later investigation found several rounds with 2 bullets seated into the case, caused by lube build up in the seating die holding onto a bullet, the missed clue was several charged cases in the loaded bin with no bullets.

 

A local production shooter blew up a pistol with an "under-charged" detonation, but several weeks later found hard caked mud in several cases from the same batch of range brass used in the kaboom batch.  No way for sure to tell if that is what caused the kaboom, but it's a likely candidate.

 

Another local PCC shooter had a case blow out from what he was sure was an "under-charged" detonation, but 3 bullets were found stuck in the barrel.

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22 minutes ago, copterdrvr said:

THREE bullets in the barrel????????????

 

YIKES!!!!!!!!

 

Would love to know what load your friend was using when he blew up his Glock.....

 

Not my friend, just a local shooter.  I believe it was 3 grains or less of whatever was the latest hotness in powders.

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1 hour ago, copterdrvr said:

Wow! That HAS to be a barrel manufacturer demonstrating how "tough" his barrels are and if actually fired rounds, must be REALLY light!


Apparently this is a real thing. I’ve seen multiple posts from firearms manufacturers like this one:

 

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/guy-sends-his-hi-point-carbine-to-customer-service-due-to-accuracy-issues-they-find-35-squibs.1755594/print

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1 hour ago, copterdrvr said:

HAH! That's hilarious!!!!

 

We ALL know there are an unbelievable number of clueless MORONS out there but COME ON--I find it hard to believe this one!!!!   😆

 

As I understand it, a  AR9 type PCC does not have that obvious feel (as pistols do) when a squib happens.   Especially if the bullet traveled 10in then stopped in barrel, yet action still fully cycled.   The pic above I suspect is a JP test, but I dont know that to be fact.

 

Mostly this is a too-low powder-charge situation as opposed to primer-only discharge.   JP, I think, has suggested using steel-plate target for those first few rounds of your freshly made super-low power-factor ammo - just to be sure the bullets leave the barrel.

 

I have never experienced a squib in my PCC yet, 20,000+ rounds, so I dont know what it feels like to have a round stick 10" down the barrel, or if carbine will cycle.

Edited by BlackBuzzard
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