RFPI Low Ready to First Plate

[Poozinsc]

Hello.  I have been shooting Steel Challenge for several years (RFRO primarily) and had to step away for awhile due to some real life issues.  Upon return , and now having plenty of time, I decided to challenge myself and picked my worst division (RFPI) and set a goal of eventually earning an A classification.

 

I've been doing a lot of dry fire (I bought the banner set -- love 'em), have been doing a lot of the drills in Ken's book and some Enos drills.  My transitions have become pretty decent.  I have improved a bunch in the last several months.  However, the one skill that is really killing me is coming from the low ready to the first plate.  I do use a shot timer/par timer in my training.

 

Any tips, drills or advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance....

 

[Sigarmsp226]

Set up and dry run the process of low ready to the first target 2-4 times before starting your first string and at least 1 or 2 times before starting your remaining 3-4 strings.  

 

More Importantly - And I have watched this by every Grand Master and Master shooter - After you complete your dry run - your low ready start position for your head and EYES are on the first target - NOT your sights.......Watch videos on line and you will see that the professionals are looking at their first target before the start buzzer sounds......Just a suggestion..... 

[zzt]

8 minutes ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

your low ready start position for your head and EYES are on the first target - NOT your sights.....

 

This ^^^^^^.  It definitely lowered my times once I started doing this.  I was shooting with a friend and I was beating him on times.  He asked what I was doing, so I showed him.  Then I showed him what he was doing.  We were on Showdown at the time.  I told him to take his sight pictures on the farthest target, then move the rifle to the flag without moving his head.  Then when he brings the gun up to normal shooting position he was automatically on target.  He picked up 1/4 to 1/2 second on each string.

[KelsonAK]

I was working on this a little bit this morning while practicing 5 to Go with my RFPI.  First shot times (I start on the 10 yard 10" on the left) for me on 5 to Go generally are in the low.6 to low .5s. 

My .02

When you start pointed at P1, be sure your grip is perfect and tight the way you want it.  The only thing that should shift at all is your arms as they come to low ready.

Move fast on the beep - even for 'hard' shots like on pendulum.  You can move fastest by relaxing the muscles that have to do the work.  For me that translates into having good supporting strength in the pecs as part of my overall grip, but consciously relaxing the shoulder muscles on the back side of the shoulders.  If you are carrying tension there (some times people think they are 'winding up' like a rubber band) it WILL be slower than if you relax there.

Catch the sights with your peripheral vision  as it comes up and put your focal length on it.  So.... while maintaining the center of vision on the center of P1, observe the sights and bring your focal depth to the distance of the sights instead of the target.  

Learn what 'acceptable' is as far as a sight picture.  And then drill it and drill it so that you can become reactive to it in pulling the trigger rather than analyzing it before pulling the trigger.  Sometimes this gets confused with 'over aiming' - it's not over aiming, it's not having the subconscious recognition of 'good/go.'  That means we have to 'think' about it and that means a delay of about .2-.3 seconds.  

Learn to prep the trigger on the way up.  That way you don't have to mash it like a drunk monkey when it's up and risk mashing it low left or whatev.  

Try not to 'crash' the target.  By that I mean when you are bring the gun up like a dragster, let off the gas a liiiiitle bit towards the end so the gun doesn't horribly overshoot the target or come to target and wind up bouncing up and down like a whooptie van in the high school parking lot with bad shocks.  (bring it in for a smooth-ish landing)

Only move what has to be moved to get the gun on target.  Don't move your butt.  Don't move your knees or torso.  Don't move your head.  

And of course - go at the start of the beep not the end.

 

[Poozinsc]

Thanks to all for your feedback.  A couple of things immediately come to mind. 

 

1)  I'm not relaxing my shoulders and sort of "muscling" (sp?) the gun up.

2)  The biggest issue is getting the sight picture correct.  I have to believe I have been 'crashing' the target.  It certainly describes what I've been doing, although I had to look up "whooptie van" on Wikipedia... 

 

It's back to the dry fire room to work on this.  I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[nso123]

Another thing that helps me when going to the first plate is to be sure you move in a straight line from the low ready to the first plate. I know this sounds simple, but if you watch some shooters you will notice they make an arc type move to the target which is slower. We are in a game where cutting a couple hundredths of a second on each string adds up. Making that first shot fast really helps. 

Edited April 4, 2020 by nso123

[jrdoran]

"However, the one skill that is really killing me is coming from the low ready to the first plate.  I do use a shot timer/par timer in my training.  "

 

All good feedback from others.  Look up Pyramid training from @Stix here on the forums.  It really helps to identify which plate is your weak link in a given stage.   This will vary stage to stage.    

 

Rimfire SC is very competitive so to get to 'A' or 'M' you are going to have do perform well on all stages.  With iron sights, I'd worry more about outer limits or speed option with some of the farther targets.   I'm a dot shooter, so I can't verify, but I would think they would be harder with iron.

[zzt]

44 minutes ago, jrdoran said:

I'm a dot shooter, so I can't verify, but I would think they would be harder with iron.

 

LOL.  That is certainly the case with me.  I can't see the front sights, so it is dots for me.  I do own one pistol that does not (yet) have a dot on it.  I am lucky to keep the shots on the 18x24 paper at 15 yards.  

[photoracer]

Until you see Kolby Pavlock shoot irons you don't know how fast is fast. 4 time rimfire world champ shooting irons instead of optics, beating the top steel pros like BJ Norris and KC Eucebio who were shooting optics.
This is or was to be the first year I will be shooting both open and limited in RCSA. So I have been shooting SCSA in both also.
One thing to consider is your foot positions. If you get In position and snap your firearm up to the first target in dryfire and it's not right on the target, requiring a little adjustment then you are giving up time and your natural point of aim. So you want to adjust your position so the snap to the target is right on the first plate everytime. It's more important on the long guns due to the low ready position unlike centerfire where you can line your body to point at the first target.

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[Poozinsc]

Happy 4th of July to all.  I hope you get to send some "freedom pills" downrange today.

 

I thought I'd give you an update on where I am in this process.  I took your feedback to heart and essentially dedicated the month of May to working on this.  These are the things that have worked for me:

 

1.  Grip -- I "rebuilt" my grip early on.  I came across a video on developing a grip that pointed out several weaknesses in mine and I adjusted accordingly.  I also realized I wasn't gripping the pistol firmly enough through a whole string.  This has made a difference.

 

2.  Sights -- I've concentrated on getting a good sight picture as I come up on the first plate.  Transitioning from staring down P1 to the front sight is still a work in progress, but I'm getting there.

 

3.  Natural Point of Aim -- I'm treating the "dry run" when you step into the box like NPOA with a long gun.  If the pistol isn't coming up to the same position (or aimed properly) everytime, step back and reset.  I discovered early on that if I ignore this, I'm hitting the berm dead center everytime.   

 

So -- now when I step into the box I mentally repeat G-S-N to remind myself what to do.  

 

I have improved over the last few months but still have a ways to go.  My first hit percentage is up and time to first plate is down.  I continue to drill this each session.

 

Once again, thanks for your generous advice.  It's been a great help.

 

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Poozinsc
Posted too early

[Hammer002]

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2020 at 9:11 AM, Poozinsc said:

Happy 4th of July to all.  I hope you get to send some "freedom pills" downrange today.

 

I thought I'd give you an update on where I am in this process.  I took your feedback to heart and essentially dedicated the month of May to working on this.  These are the things that have worked for me:

 

1.  Grip -- I "rebuilt" my grip early on.  I came across a video on developing a grip that pointed out several weaknesses in mine and I adjusted accordingly.  I also realized I wasn't gripping the pistol firmly enough through a whole string.  This has made a difference.

 

2.  Sights -- I've concentrated on getting a good sight picture as I come up on the first plate.  Transitioning from staring down P1 to the front sight is still a work in progress, but I'm getting there.

 

3.  Natural Point of Aim -- I'm treating the "dry run" when you step into the box like NPOA with a long gun.  If the pistol isn't coming up to the same position (or aimed properly) everytime, step back and reset.  I discovered early on that if I ignore this, I'm hitting the berm dead center everytime.   

 

So -- now when I step into the box I mentally repeat G-S-N to remind myself what to do.  

 

I have improved over the last few months but still have a ways to go.  My first hit percentage is up and time to first plate is down.  I continue to drill this each session.

 

Once again, thanks for your generous advice.  It's been a great help.

 

 

 

Well, I'm coming in late to this thread, but I can certainly help.

 

1.  The grip is something many struggle with.  Most all struggle with grip pressure.  Especially throughout the entire time shooting.  The goal is to first have a grip that is naturally presenting the gun.  If all things equal, once you establish natural point of aim, you should be able to bring the gun up with your eyes closed on target.  Stance affects this as well, so get that worked out.  And for the sake of conversation, lets keep in mind this Natural Point of Aim idea.

 

2.  Sights - ok, you are doing what most do here.  The advice given above is solid, you need to be looking at the first plate.  "Looking."  Staring is the perfect word use for what many do when first learning this technique.  It seems like cutting hairs, but its worth pointing out there is a huge difference.  Especially with irons.  So the difference between the dot, and irons, at least traditionally, is with a dot, you look at the target, allowing the dot to superimpose itself on the target.  Top shooters are doing something a little different, be we wont get into that here except to say if you dig deep into this topic, you may find variance.  For our conversation, lets keep it simple.  With irons, there is an additional step your mind and eye must take if you are "staring" at the target.  This also comes up in transition discussion.  If you are staring intently at the target and bring the gun up into view, your eyes and mind must make a transition from the target to the front sight to aim.  I will also point out, this initial "staring" will make you prone to wanting to return vision to the target after shooting, or worse because the brain likes short cuts, during the shot.  This usually results in no ding.  So, to keep it as simple as possible, you want to develop the difference between staring, or what I call detailed vision, to just looking.  I equate this to making your entire field of view the feeling of your peripheral vision, where you see, but don't necessarily focus.  So, good advice for the first plate is aim small, miss small.  If there is a mark, spec, or previous shot on the plate, we are aiming for that, not the whole plate.  Or, to put it another way, we are aiming for the center of the plate.  The center.  But we aren't staring at the center, we are acknowledging where it is by looking.  The difference is when looking, we focus on the front sight or dot when it comes into view.  Rather than staring at the target, where there will be more of an effort to break that stare and move to the front sight.  Just let it be.

 

3.  Ok, well, there are other things that need to be discussed here.

 

3a - We established Natural Point of Aim above as being in a position that fits YOU, allowing for you to draw or come from low ready naturally, even with eyes closed, to the target.  This is something that should be practiced in dry fire.  But that is for dry fire, I'll get to that later.  What's very important to point out here - is natural point of aim IS NOT established on the first plate.  Yeah, I know, it just got complicated.  No, not really, you will like what I'm gonna tell you.

 

3b - So, this is pretty much Steel Challenge 101.  That is to say, some of the very first things to be formally learned specifically about shooting Steel Challenge or RImfire Challenge.  You have to pay attention to several things when you come into the box.  The first of which is your mental focus.  Another conversation.  The next of which is your preshooting routine.  Another conversation.  The next of which is where you are positioning yourself IN the box.  For example, front right on Roundabout and Showdown left box puts plates 1 and 2 very close together, or the rear center of the box on Smoke and Hope, giving you a wider field of view to better make wide transitions.  Not gonna go into all of them, but just making a point to find it.  Then we are establishing Natural Point of Aim.  And its NOT on plate one.  Max Michel advises it to be, because he says half of his time on the clock is on the draw from the holster.  However, we are not Max Michel.  He shoots the plate patterns easily and is working on what makes him faster, considering tenths of seconds.  Most of the people learning what we are discussing here are not that level.  So natural point of aim is established on the most important shot of the stage.  Or the most challenging.  Or the hardest.  However you want to look at it, I will call it the most important because that can encompass the entire stage. 

 

Lets start easy with Smoke and Hope.  Natural Point of Aim must be established on the stop plate.  But we aren't shooting that plate first, so we need another term.  Indexing.  We establish natural point of aim on the stop plate.  This is with the gun, physically pointing at the stop plate, whether it be a pistol or rifle.  All should feel right here.  Everything in alignment as though that plate was 100 yards away and the only target being shot.  Once that is established, we rotate with the hips and knees.  NOT the shoulders!  At the waist and with the knees. l like a turret on a tank.  This is another deep discussion, but suffice it to say you will quickly learn two things that affect what we are discussing here - you want to be more upright so you can rotate side to side without an up and down arc.  And foot position.  Again, keeping it easy discussing Smoke and Hope, the left toes should be pointing toward the edge of the left side of the left plate, and the right toes should be pointing toward the edge of the right side of the right plate.  This supports rotation.  Rotation is important, because we rotate to our Index.  Our index is the first plate.  So, establish natural point of aim on the stop plate, then slowly, physically rotate with the run pointed until we have a sight picture on our first plate.  Lets say we shoot plate one on smoke and hope.  Natural point of aim on stop plate, rotate at hips and knees without altering upper body, to establish our index on plate one.  Establish sight picture.  Leaving eyes, head, body, knees, etc, all but arms in position as we lower the gun to the low ready cone.  No, its not going to be perfectly aimed at the cone.  It doesn't have to be, just close.  If an RO gives you a hard time about this, make sure you are getting close.  If something is said, which is extremely rare, but people like to discuss it when learning this technique, simply restart your preshot routine and make yourself ready to shoot again.

 

So to recap, physically establish point of aim on the important plate.  Stop on Smoke, plate 3 on Accelerator, plate 2 on Speed Option, plate 4 on Five To Go, etc.  Rotate using waist and knees to index on first plate to be shot.  There are many other things to be considered, but this is as basic as it gets for this discussion.

 

4.  I'm an honest, straightforward person, and I tell it like it is, or at least how I know it to be.  So the next part might generate some discontentment, especially from one of the active members here.  Ok, here goes - Dry fire IS NOT the way to learn Steel Challenge.  I'm sorry.  Its just not.  I bought the banners.  I read the book.  Ken's heart and mind are in the right place, and will definitely help some entry level shooters getting up to speed on some of the understanding.

 

So, hear me out.  Some things are best learned some ways, and you will learn some ways are not so great on the back side.  A good example is people who practice shooting the first plate only.  This is NOT good practice.  You may improve your first shot time, however you are creating a mental rut that will affect the rest of the pattern.  If you insist on doing this, at least make the transition to at least plate two.  And dry fire simply isn't going to get it.  Dry fire is amazing for USPSA type shooting.  Its also amazing for learning/perfecting the draw.  The rest of Steel Challenge simply has to be learned with live fire.  There is too much going on with speed shooting to be learned leaving out recoil and true gun manipulation.  I'm sorry, you are not going to show significant improvement with dry fire.  It actually hurt me.  I am a practice guy.  I practice A LOT.  So when I got the banners, I hit the practice.  I used them A LOT.  What I learned is I learned how to get really fast in dry fire.  I set par times, and beat them.  I got better and beat faster par times.  Come match day = train wreck.  Now I had recoil in something I was trying to do quickly at best, let alone fast.  Recoil is at least 50 percent of the game!  If you want improvement, its gonna be on the range.  There are ways to practice live fire, but that's another discussion and this is already getting lengthy.  Just suffice to say, practice for Steel Challenge simply isn't in dry fire.  Not that there is no benefit to a couple things done this way, but they are supported by live fire and another discussion.  If you want to get better, your focus is on the range.

 

While I'm stepping on toes, specifically Ken's, be careful with his book.  He's a dedicated shooter, and probably means well, but many of the thing he wrote were not, lets say conventional wisdom even at the time written.  Now that was probably part of the idea, to put something out there different, that's what most people attempting to make money on something do.  Even Ken has to admit at a minimum since the book's release, the game has completely changed.  A couple times.  There is some good content in there.  Mental attitude is a good example.  His attitude toward the game can be emulated.  But most of the physical things he describes, there are simply better ways.  I'm not picking on Ken, hopefully he can even admit his perspective toward at least Outer Limits has changed, even though he was so animate about his way being the only way when he wrote the book.  I hope so, because not only did no one do it that way when he wrote it, as I think I remember he admitted, he was completely backwards wrong at the time.  I think he could admit that, cause I understand he doesn't shoot it that way anymore.  Ken means well, but like he said in his book, he hasn't won anything.  He hasn't since then.  He isn't one of the influences of the sport.  There are better teachers out there.  Anyway, look at recent teachings from the actual top players.  Max Michel, KC Eusebio, BJ Norris, etc.  Some of them have made some good videos.  The issue is most are entry level and you wont find many videos of them actually competing.  At least nothing that shows their physical shooting, just the plates.  They are the pros, and they keep their secrets close to the chest, or only available for a fee. 

 

If you want to learn Steel Challenge.  Look at the videos that are out there.  Read Ken's book.  A better place is to look into Steve Foster.  He's the best.  He just recently shot the fastest time ever in history for all eight stages, beating Chris Barrett and Grant Kunkel's recent records.  Look for videos of Kolby Pavlock.  These are the fast guys in the game.  If you are coming from a holster, the pros are the source.  That's just not where the game has gone.  The top fuel racers are using rimfire.

 

I hope I have helped someone with something.  There is so much to learn about this simple sport.  It becomes dead simple at such a complicated level.  I love to pass on what I have learned to those wanting to improve.  These forums are just a bit difficult, because we aren't shooting.  Its all text.  Anyone can come in here and say this that or the other.  Debate, argue, whatever.  But if we were on the range, I would easily have your attention over anyone else that I have seen in here.  So that's to say, I'm willing to put anything out there or pass on anything I have been taught or learned.  But ignorant people acting aggressively ignorant can become taxing.  Check out the Steel Target Paint Podcast.  So much information there.  Steve Foster is one of the strongest ambassadors of the sport.  Seek out that level of improvement.  

[stick]

On 4/3/2020 at 2:07 PM, Sigarmsp226 said:

 

 

More Importantly - And I have watched this by every Grand Master and Master shooter - After you complete your dry run - your low ready start position for your head and EYES are on the first target - NOT your sights.......

I can't stress this enough!  When I was shooting Steel Challenge, This is what gave me the final push from A to GM.

[Cuz]

Wow, lots of great info here. I’m glad the OP asked the question and you all responded. I will be better because I stumbled upon it.

Thanks.


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[Nimitz]

On 4/3/2020 at 1:02 PM, Poozinsc said:

Hello.  I have been shooting Steel Challenge for several years (RFRO primarily) and had to step away for awhile due to some real life issues.  Upon return , and now having plenty of time, I decided to challenge myself and picked my worst division (RFPI) and set a goal of eventually earning an A classification.

 

I've been doing a lot of dry fire (I bought the banner set -- love 'em), have been doing a lot of the drills in Ken's book and some Enos drills.  My transitions have become pretty decent.  I have improved a bunch in the last several months.  However, the one skill that is really killing me is coming from the low ready to the first plate.  I do use a shot timer/par timer in my training.

 

Any tips, drills or advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance....

 

Speed comes from being relaxed as tense muscles cannot move as fast as when they are relaxed.  If you have tension in your shoulders the only way to go fast is to muscle the gun which is not good.  remember, you shoot with your hands and you must learn to crush the gun with your hands and relax everything else.  also, are you looking at your first target with the gun pointed at the start flag or are you looking at the start flag through your sights?  if the latter, that is a major reason for your 'slowness' because at the start signal your brain doesn't know where you want to end up (you're not looking at your intended target) and therefore your subconscious doesn't know when to stop the gun until your eyes do finally get to the target.  after sighting on teh start flag & gripping the gun correctly you need to be looking at your first plate while waiting for the timer to go off

[Poozinsc]

Lots to unpack here.  A few quick notes:

 

1)  I'm starting with the pistol at low ready at the flag while I look at the first plate.  This is something I wasn't doing in my past life (or doing well) and always struggled with finding the dot/post on the first shot.  Lots of practice (live and dry fire) has greatly improved that but I still have a ways to go.  As mentioned above and from Ken's book I always advance to the next plate while doing that drill.

 

2)  I continue to work hard on transitions -- eyes first then following with the body.  I like the suggestion of rotating the upper body like a tank turret.  It makes a lot of sense to me and I plan on trying that at the range this week if the rain ever stops.

 

3)  I've worked hard on firming up my grip (hence the grip reconstruction) and am now working on the relaxation part.  The great dichotomy -- keep it in line but "let it flow".

 

4)  The natural point of aim working off the stop plate is also something I've considered and will try that out.

 

5)  I've used the banners a lot and I know I've benefitted from the.  The main benefits I've gotten out of the are a)  being able to practice and determine a good shooting sequence b) practice coming up to the start plate and transitioning to the 2nd plate and c) becoming VERY familiar with each stage.  The last point seems silly but our club has shallow bays and before the banners there were certain stages (Outer Limits and Speed Option in particular) I would only see once or twice a year.  Now -- no problem.  I see them and I have a plan how to shoot them.  My club has strict limitations on praticing with steel so I'm limited with what I can set up for practice.  A lot of drills are done.

 

6)  I like the suggestions on setting your position at the start for proper rotation through the stage.  I'll be looking at that while practicing transitions this week and when using the banners.

 

I'm sure I've missed something here. I really appreciate all of your feedback.  It's nice to belong to a community so willing to share.

 

 Steel Challenge is a great sport.  So simple on the surface but once you start peeling the layers off the onion....

 

 

[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, Poozinsc said:

2)  I continue to work hard on transitions -- eyes first then following with the body.

 

4)  The natural point of aim working off the stop plate is also something I've considered and will try that out.

ok. Let’s get next level here. On #2. I’m gonna put this out there and you’re either going to be able to grasp it, or not. People will likely debate what I’m about to say, but they would be wrong. Modern steel challenge transitions, at the top level, are NOT done this way. This is how we are taught to do Gun transitions. It’s slow. It’s called ticking, or ratcheting, or chasing, or whatever. That method causes stopping and starting of the gun. Which is slow. And actually harder. The top shooters are using a method I personally call fluid motion. The eyes are staying with the gun, on sight. If irons, never leaving the front sight. If dot, never leaving the dot. Some minds just started to blow reading that. But it’s the truth. Moving the gun fluidly will feel slower, but produce faster, more reliable or repeatable times.  Warning, this technique is NOT easy to learn. Not because it’s hard, but because it’s a change from the conventional. Either believe me, or don’t. Either way, this is how the top shooters are shooting. 
 

on #4, just note, it’s not always off the stop plate. Smoke = stop plate.  Speed option might be plate 2. Pendulum might be plate 2 or 3 or stop depending on you. Roundabout and left showdown might be plate 3 or stop. 5 to go might be plate 4, some suggest stop plate, but I would advise against that. Accelerator might be plate 3, or the stop. Part of this technique is your comfortability factor. You will come to know these things change with your skill improvement. And that’s ok. Don’t try to think of things as being set in stone. I’ve shot with literally the best in the sport, and they do different things that work for them. I shot with Chris Barrett at area 5. Among several things, he shot pendulum right to left. Told me I should try it sometime. He was sub 2’s. I tried it in next practice. Wasn’t for me!  Lol. Might be later. But not right now. Do what works for you as long as you are progressing. 

[KelsonAK]

lets talk transitions a little bit more, because frankly, I'm undecided on things, and I'm not sure that what people think they are doing is what they actually are doing, myself included.

Essentially in this game (and life) there are three main ways of changing what we see with our eyes, or gaze control.  Rapid eye movement (saccades), fixation, and pursuit.  Fixation (seeing things within about 3 deg of line of site, holding for 100ms allows us to process information (ie:  determine if our sights are aligned.)   Pursuit tracking (what was described above with the watch the front sight) allows us to follow objects up to 'about' 270 deg/second.  The advantage of pursuit tracking is that it allows fixation on an object in motion - however it makes it VERY difficult to see anything else.  When the eye moves, the item it is fixated on in pursuit is clear, the remainder of the world goes blurry - smeared.  In practice what this causes for me is over swing/under swing on the command to shoot.  processing to muscle coordination is 'about' 180 ms.  

Saccades (rapid eye movements to a target with +/- 2 deg accuracy is not without it's downsides also.  First and foremost - you are physically blind before, during and after the saccade.  AND - decision making based on visual input isn't actually possible during the saccade. Essentially we stop seeing about 50ms before the movement when the 'decision' to move is made.  We are blind DURING the movement (~270deg/second, give or take) and the world fills in from the inside of our vision cone (3 deg) out over the course of about another 50ms.  During that time - because we don't know we are blind - our mind fills in the blanks from short term visual memory, and generally incredibly accurately.  So - seeing plate 3 in 5 to go before the start beep has it 'fresh' in our visual memory so we are actually 'pre-seeing' it during the transition from plate 2 to plate 3 - and we also help ourselves pre-see by using our periphrial vision as  well.  That means that even though you didn't see it, you may have 'seen it' enough to execute much faster than the optic processing physically allows.

Practically this means that for many transitions when we KNOW what we expect to see, where we look to where the target is and drive the gun to the target we have about .1 second where we are using our heads not our eyes.  Ish.  It also means that we are able to be very accurate in our targeting.  

The very fastest way of seeing anything is to keep within the ~3 deg area of fixation.  If you can do that, there is no eye movement to deal with - we just see.  So VERY small transitions can be very fast if we keep our eye still and just see.

 

Add into this mix the idea of 'reactive' shooting (executing the trigger based on the conditions being correct vs. 'deciding' to pull the trigger) and at the top levels of this sport it gets a little - interesting - in trying to describe what we are doing and seeing.  Add into the mix that I haven't seen any studies done of steel challenge at the highest level on what performers are actually doing with their eyes - and getting that feedback from individuals is horridly difficult because of the way short term visual memory works in filling in gaps and making us think we saw something that we didn't actually see.  Or do  It's a mess.

[Nimitz]

On 7/6/2020 at 5:09 AM, Hammer002 said:

 

Well, I'm coming in late to this thread, but I can certainly help.

 

1.  The grip is something many struggle with.  Most all struggle with grip pressure.  Especially throughout the entire time shooting.  The goal is to first have a grip that is naturally presenting the gun.  If all things equal, once you establish natural point of aim, you should be able to bring the gun up with your eyes closed on target.  Stance affects this as well, so get that worked out.  And for the sake of conversation, lets keep in mind this Natural Point of Aim idea.

 

2.  Sights - ok, you are doing what most do here.  The advice given above is solid, you need to be looking at the first plate.  "Looking."  Staring is the perfect word use for what many do when first learning this technique.  It seems like cutting hairs, but its worth pointing out there is a huge difference.  Especially with irons.  So the difference between the dot, and irons, at least traditionally, is with a dot, you look at the target, allowing the dot to superimpose itself on the target.  Top shooters are doing something a little different, be we wont get into that here except to say if you dig deep into this topic, you may find variance.  For our conversation, lets keep it simple.  With irons, there is an additional step your mind and eye must take if you are "staring" at the target.  This also comes up in transition discussion.  If you are staring intently at the target and bring the gun up into view, your eyes and mind must make a transition from the target to the front sight to aim.  I will also point out, this initial "staring" will make you prone to wanting to return vision to the target after shooting, or worse because the brain likes short cuts, during the shot.  This usually results in no ding.  So, to keep it as simple as possible, you want to develop the difference between staring, or what I call detailed vision, to just looking.  I equate this to making your entire field of view the feeling of your peripheral vision, where you see, but don't necessarily focus.  So, good advice for the first plate is aim small, miss small.  If there is a mark, spec, or previous shot on the plate, we are aiming for that, not the whole plate.  Or, to put it another way, we are aiming for the center of the plate.  The center.  But we aren't staring at the center, we are acknowledging where it is by looking.  The difference is when looking, we focus on the front sight or dot when it comes into view.  Rather than staring at the target, where there will be more of an effort to break that stare and move to the front sight.  Just let it be.

 

3.  Ok, well, there are other things that need to be discussed here.

 

3a - We established Natural Point of Aim above as being in a position that fits YOU, allowing for you to draw or come from low ready naturally, even with eyes closed, to the target.  This is something that should be practiced in dry fire.  But that is for dry fire, I'll get to that later.  What's very important to point out here - is natural point of aim IS NOT established on the first plate.  Yeah, I know, it just got complicated.  No, not really, you will like what I'm gonna tell you.

 

3b - So, this is pretty much Steel Challenge 101.  That is to say, some of the very first things to be formally learned specifically about shooting Steel Challenge or RImfire Challenge.  You have to pay attention to several things when you come into the box.  The first of which is your mental focus.  Another conversation.  The next of which is your preshooting routine.  Another conversation.  The next of which is where you are positioning yourself IN the box.  For example, front right on Roundabout and Showdown left box puts plates 1 and 2 very close together, or the rear center of the box on Smoke and Hope, giving you a wider field of view to better make wide transitions.  Not gonna go into all of them, but just making a point to find it.  Then we are establishing Natural Point of Aim.  And its NOT on plate one.  Max Michel advises it to be, because he says half of his time on the clock is on the draw from the holster.  However, we are not Max Michel.  He shoots the plate patterns easily and is working on what makes him faster, considering tenths of seconds.  Most of the people learning what we are discussing here are not that level.  So natural point of aim is established on the most important shot of the stage.  Or the most challenging.  Or the hardest.  However you want to look at it, I will call it the most important because that can encompass the entire stage. 

 

Lets start easy with Smoke and Hope.  Natural Point of Aim must be established on the stop plate.  But we aren't shooting that plate first, so we need another term.  Indexing.  We establish natural point of aim on the stop plate.  This is with the gun, physically pointing at the stop plate, whether it be a pistol or rifle.  All should feel right here.  Everything in alignment as though that plate was 100 yards away and the only target being shot.  Once that is established, we rotate with the hips and knees.  NOT the shoulders!  At the waist and with the knees. l like a turret on a tank.  This is another deep discussion, but suffice it to say you will quickly learn two things that affect what we are discussing here - you want to be more upright so you can rotate side to side without an up and down arc.  And foot position.  Again, keeping it easy discussing Smoke and Hope, the left toes should be pointing toward the edge of the left side of the left plate, and the right toes should be pointing toward the edge of the right side of the right plate.  This supports rotation.  Rotation is important, because we rotate to our Index.  Our index is the first plate.  So, establish natural point of aim on the stop plate, then slowly, physically rotate with the run pointed until we have a sight picture on our first plate.  Lets say we shoot plate one on smoke and hope.  Natural point of aim on stop plate, rotate at hips and knees without altering upper body, to establish our index on plate one.  Establish sight picture.  Leaving eyes, head, body, knees, etc, all but arms in position as we lower the gun to the low ready cone.  No, its not going to be perfectly aimed at the cone.  It doesn't have to be, just close.  If an RO gives you a hard time about this, make sure you are getting close.  If something is said, which is extremely rare, but people like to discuss it when learning this technique, simply restart your preshot routine and make yourself ready to shoot again.

 

So to recap, physically establish point of aim on the important plate.  Stop on Smoke, plate 3 on Accelerator, plate 2 on Speed Option, plate 4 on Five To Go, etc.  Rotate using waist and knees to index on first plate to be shot.  There are many other things to be considered, but this is as basic as it gets for this discussion.

 

4.  I'm an honest, straightforward person, and I tell it like it is, or at least how I know it to be.  So the next part might generate some discontentment, especially from one of the active members here.  Ok, here goes - Dry fire IS NOT the way to learn Steel Challenge.  I'm sorry.  Its just not.  I bought the banners.  I read the book.  Ken's heart and mind are in the right place, and will definitely help some entry level shooters getting up to speed on some of the understanding.

 

So, hear me out.  Some things are best learned some ways, and you will learn some ways are not so great on the back side.  A good example is people who practice shooting the first plate only.  This is NOT good practice.  You may improve your first shot time, however you are creating a mental rut that will affect the rest of the pattern.  If you insist on doing this, at least make the transition to at least plate two.  And dry fire simply isn't going to get it.  Dry fire is amazing for USPSA type shooting.  Its also amazing for learning/perfecting the draw.  The rest of Steel Challenge simply has to be learned with live fire.  There is too much going on with speed shooting to be learned leaving out recoil and true gun manipulation.  I'm sorry, you are not going to show significant improvement with dry fire.  It actually hurt me.  I am a practice guy.  I practice A LOT.  So when I got the banners, I hit the practice.  I used them A LOT.  What I learned is I learned how to get really fast in dry fire.  I set par times, and beat them.  I got better and beat faster par times.  Come match day = train wreck.  Now I had recoil in something I was trying to do quickly at best, let alone fast.  Recoil is at least 50 percent of the game!  If you want improvement, its gonna be on the range.  There are ways to practice live fire, but that's another discussion and this is already getting lengthy.  Just suffice to say, practice for Steel Challenge simply isn't in dry fire.  Not that there is no benefit to a couple things done this way, but they are supported by live fire and another discussion.  If you want to get better, your focus is on the range.

 

While I'm stepping on toes, specifically Ken's, be careful with his book.  He's a dedicated shooter, and probably means well, but many of the thing he wrote were not, lets say conventional wisdom even at the time written.  Now that was probably part of the idea, to put something out there different, that's what most people attempting to make money on something do.  Even Ken has to admit at a minimum since the book's release, the game has completely changed.  A couple times.  There is some good content in there.  Mental attitude is a good example.  His attitude toward the game can be emulated.  But most of the physical things he describes, there are simply better ways.  I'm not picking on Ken, hopefully he can even admit his perspective toward at least Outer Limits has changed, even though he was so animate about his way being the only way when he wrote the book.  I hope so, because not only did no one do it that way when he wrote it, as I think I remember he admitted, he was completely backwards wrong at the time.  I think he could admit that, cause I understand he doesn't shoot it that way anymore.  Ken means well, but like he said in his book, he hasn't won anything.  He hasn't since then.  He isn't one of the influences of the sport.  There are better teachers out there.  Anyway, look at recent teachings from the actual top players.  Max Michel, KC Eusebio, BJ Norris, etc.  Some of them have made some good videos.  The issue is most are entry level and you wont find many videos of them actually competing.  At least nothing that shows their physical shooting, just the plates.  They are the pros, and they keep their secrets close to the chest, or only available for a fee. 

 

If you want to learn Steel Challenge.  Look at the videos that are out there.  Read Ken's book.  A better place is to look into Steve Foster.  He's the best.  He just recently shot the fastest time ever in history for all eight stages, beating Chris Barrett and Grant Kunkel's recent records.  Look for videos of Kolby Pavlock.  These are the fast guys in the game.  If you are coming from a holster, the pros are the source.  That's just not where the game has gone.  The top fuel racers are using rimfire.

 

I hope I have helped someone with something.  There is so much to learn about this simple sport.  It becomes dead simple at such a complicated level.  I love to pass on what I have learned to those wanting to improve.  These forums are just a bit difficult, because we aren't shooting.  Its all text.  Anyone can come in here and say this that or the other.  Debate, argue, whatever.  But if we were on the range, I would easily have your attention over anyone else that I have seen in here.  So that's to say, I'm willing to put anything out there or pass on anything I have been taught or learned.  But ignorant people acting aggressively ignorant can become taxing.  Check out the Steel Target Paint Podcast.  So much information there.  Steve Foster is one of the strongest ambassadors of the sport.  Seek out that level of improvement.  

 

I don’t mind you saying you disagree with me, but please get your facts straight when you make claims about ME personally ... thank-you.

[Hammer002]

On 7/25/2020 at 1:36 PM, Nimitz said:

 

I don’t mind you saying you disagree with me, but please get your facts straight when you make claims about ME personally ... thank-you.

 

Help me understand.  What facts did I misrepresent and what claims did I falsely make, please?  My attempt was at reality for the benefit of upcoming shooters attempting to learn.  You MUST be able to accept and admit how much the game has changed, outdating the material in your book (of which I DID read, twice early in my learning process) and that some of which was not widely accepted in the first place.  Honestly, it might be time for another one.  I liked your style and approach, however some of the information was arguable that you claimed to be fact or opinions on execution not widely accepted at the time, nor certainly now.  I am in no position wanting to argue, you are free to write or say whatever you wish, the same as I.  Like you said you not minding my disagreeing with you, I do not mind being corrected where I am wrong, even challenging a differing opinion.  I am big enough to accept rightful correction AND learn from it.  i have no disrespect for you.  I own your book in both soft cover and Kindle and I own all eight Steel Challenge banners.  I am well read in what you have written both in the book and here.  I am well practiced with your banners, to the extent they were useful.  I am also IN the community and know your impact within it.  So if you should be able to endure, please straighten my facts and counter my claims.  I am also big enough to admit when I'm wrong, if adequately shown to be.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Hammer002

[Hammer002]

On 7/23/2020 at 4:59 PM, KelsonAK said:

lets talk transitions a little bit more, because frankly, I'm undecided on things, and I'm not sure that what people think they are doing is what they actually are doing, myself included.

Essentially in this game (and life) there are three main ways of changing what we see with our eyes, or gaze control.  Rapid eye movement (saccades), fixation, and pursuit.  Fixation (seeing things within about 3 deg of line of site, holding for 100ms allows us to process information (ie:  determine if our sights are aligned.)   Pursuit tracking (what was described above with the watch the front sight) allows us to follow objects up to 'about' 270 deg/second.  The advantage of pursuit tracking is that it allows fixation on an object in motion - however it makes it VERY difficult to see anything else.  When the eye moves, the item it is fixated on in pursuit is clear, the remainder of the world goes blurry - smeared.  In practice what this causes for me is over swing/under swing on the command to shoot.  processing to muscle coordination is 'about' 180 ms.  

Saccades (rapid eye movements to a target with +/- 2 deg accuracy is not without it's downsides also.  First and foremost - you are physically blind before, during and after the saccade.  AND - decision making based on visual input isn't actually possible during the saccade. Essentially we stop seeing about 50ms before the movement when the 'decision' to move is made.  We are blind DURING the movement (~270deg/second, give or take) and the world fills in from the inside of our vision cone (3 deg) out over the course of about another 50ms.  During that time - because we don't know we are blind - our mind fills in the blanks from short term visual memory, and generally incredibly accurately.  So - seeing plate 3 in 5 to go before the start beep has it 'fresh' in our visual memory so we are actually 'pre-seeing' it during the transition from plate 2 to plate 3 - and we also help ourselves pre-see by using our periphrial vision as  well.  That means that even though you didn't see it, you may have 'seen it' enough to execute much faster than the optic processing physically allows.

Practically this means that for many transitions when we KNOW what we expect to see, where we look to where the target is and drive the gun to the target we have about .1 second where we are using our heads not our eyes.  Ish.  It also means that we are able to be very accurate in our targeting.  

The very fastest way of seeing anything is to keep within the ~3 deg area of fixation.  If you can do that, there is no eye movement to deal with - we just see.  So VERY small transitions can be very fast if we keep our eye still and just see.

 

Add into this mix the idea of 'reactive' shooting (executing the trigger based on the conditions being correct vs. 'deciding' to pull the trigger) and at the top levels of this sport it gets a little - interesting - in trying to describe what we are doing and seeing.  Add into the mix that I haven't seen any studies done of steel challenge at the highest level on what performers are actually doing with their eyes - and getting that feedback from individuals is horridly difficult because of the way short term visual memory works in filling in gaps and making us think we saw something that we didn't actually see.  Or do  It's a mess.

 

Ok, fair enough.  Getting into science always requires a grain of salt though.  You make an extremely good point in saying you're not sure people are doing what they think they are doing.  And you go on to quote a bunch of science I too once educated myself about for the exact purpose of learning to shoot faster.  So what I will say further is NOT in disagreement with you.  Your point is valid and your science fact.

 

So let's move the conversation to what's actually important.  You said you are undecided on things.  Many are about many things.  I think we all are, at least at some point in time.

 

Let's define first, and hopefully agree on, what's actually important:  Understanding what you are doing, or your ability to do it?  We walk around all day without a scientific understanding of how we are doing it.  We do several things on a subconscious level.  Funny enough, some things, like maybe walking, if we try to think about how to do it while doing it we might trip and fall!  Somewhere in here I would repeat what I have had coaches, senseis, and teachers say, "KISS, Keep it simply stupid."  Obviously we aren't stupid, but the idea is applying to much cognitive thought to something physical requiring the body to do many things at the same time.  This is best accomplished at a subconscious level.  So what is important is ability to execute above all.

 

So if the ability to execute is most important, is that all we care about?  Obviously not, because we have to train ourselves, body and mind, to execute what we desire ourselves to accomplish.  Examining scientific fact is interesting.  And it can assist in learning.  But we have to get past that to accomplish execution.  If we are thinking about how the eye works, or how the body interprets vision, we are thinking too much.  If that information leads us to a way to train, great.  Unfortunately, my opinion came to be this particular knowledge did not.  If anything it attempted to undermine what I thought I was doing.  Therefore it became a distraction of sort.  So you would be correct by implying we may not actually scientifically doing what we are saying we are doing.  But what's important, the ability to execute, right?  Surely you see where I might be going with this.

 

So, if as your coach, I tell you to line up on Five to Go and think about being submerged in a vat of thick oil while you move fluidly from plates 1 to 4 and  imagine pushing and pulling the gun through the oil smoothly without ratcheting or stopping and starting so the gun simply cuts and even, fluid wake through the oil that may seem slower than you are used to.  You do as I ask.  I ask you how it felt.  You say, slower.  I show you the timer and its .25 a second faster than you have ever shot the stage before.  You shockingly repeat, it felt slower.

 

Lets admit, this is an example.  Not everyone thinks the same and not every form of thought or motivation works for everyone.  Had this not worked, we would move on to another approach.  But hopefully for the sake of conversation, we can accept this example to make a point.  The point being would it have worked better had I overloaded the mind with what I want your shoulders to be doing, your arm muscles to be doing, your hands to be doing, your trigger finger to be doing, your wrist position, where your eyes should be and where they should be going when, what your knees should be doing, your legs, your head, etc.?  Maybe, but I doubt it. 

 

The idea is to enter a method of thinking that supports your execution, no matter what it is.  If you get into reading mental approach books they get into affirmation statements or mental ques or even physical gestures that remind the brain of a time when doing what you want to do well.  At one point in time when I started a flight I would say to myself, "I love white steel plates." twice to myself, then align on the cone.  During my preshot routine at one point I would tell myself "I love pink and white unicorns."  It was silly, and the silliness relaxed me.  But unicorns had nothing to do with my execution.  Nor does knowing words like saccades or flutter or understanding mental visual fill ins.  Nothing wrong with knowing that information and I'm not shading it in any way, but I would recommend stopping your evaluation at questioning what you are doing.  That's when you enter the area of Beavis and Butthead forgetting how to pee cause they thought about it!  LOL, if you don't get that reference, the same as above such as walking.  If you really want to experiment with it, try descending a staircase at a quick pace and halfway down try to think about even left, right, left, right!  Or worse, what your legs are doing.  Careful with that experiment, but I think I've made my point. 

 

Its ok to be thinking about something, as long as its working for you.  If its a distraction to learn that its not accurate, likely you have moved up a level and need a new thing to think about.  I moved on from loving white plates and unicorns when I learned to literally think about nothing but the "B" in the Beeeeeep of the timer.  The next hope is to learn to actually think about nothing at all - complete unconscious execution.  We have all been there, "in the zone," but to call upon it or do it every time, even under stress, is a feat within itself.  And it simply isn't achieved by thinking about what we are doing in a scientific way.  Do what works for you and don't second guess yourself, that's the absolute worse thing to do.  Even if you suspect something is "wrong" or "not the way," accept that is the way you are doing it today, and know you will move on from it.  If you question your literal understanding of things, you will learn to distrust yourself, making achieving unconscious execution more difficult.  Learn to trust yourself and your understanding of things to be valid, because at some point you will have to let the unconscious part take over.

 

If I haven't mentioned it before, the best information on the planet about mental approach is actually in a book, "The Inner Game of Tennis" by Timothy Gallway.  For reference, there is only ONE short chapter actually about tennis!!  lol.  There are others and many, but this one, in my opinion, is absolute must read for high level competition.  I have repeated some of the ideas here in the form of my understanding.  I've read this book three times and often listen to the audio form when I drive or go to bed.  The idea of the OP, analyzing what we are actually doing is right up the mental approach alley and well discussed in this book.  Cannot recommend it enough.

 

  Best of luck!

Edited July 29, 2020 by Hammer002

[KelsonAK]

Ben,

What is important?  

Developing and training the best techniques and processes that yield the best and most consistent results.  Being an 'unconscious' performer is part of that (a process or a technique.)  The question and follow up is probably best dumped into it's own thread as the issue of vision and following/leading the sights or dot is moving pretty far afield from the OP's question on first shot times for RFPI.

 

 

 

[Hammer002]

51 minutes ago, KelsonAK said:

Ben,

What is important?  

Developing and training the best techniques and processes that yield the best and most consistent results.  Being an 'unconscious' performer is part of that (a process or a technique.)  The question and follow up is probably best dumped into it's own thread as the issue of vision and following/leading the sights or dot is moving pretty far afield from the OP's question on first shot times for RFPI.

 

 

 

 

Being an unconscious performer is a RESULT of that developing and training the best techniques and processes that yield the best and most consistent results.  An unconscious execution isn't necessarily a process or technique in itself as much as it is the result you mention.  Unless its that format of thinking that gets you there...lol.  I think we agree, just in different wordings.  Just know the execution, in whatever form is not the technique nor process, its the result of these things.  Understanding things at a scientific level is fine in application to evaluating and forming technique and process and evaluating the execution is how to determine if its fruitful.  Analyzing the linguistic description of how the mind understands the performance from a proper language use is a fine line that's easily confused and will vary from person to person within their personal interpretations of the English language or how they appeal to reference, inference, or metaphor.

 

So lets say this.  I believe we agree.  Meaning I agree what you think is what works for you and you should embrace it.  My caution would be imposing the same type of thinking on others.  Such as in advice mode with a friend, or as a coach, or even as innocent as a public shooting forum thread.  Challenging someone to distrust their understanding of their execution with differences in language use or specific scientific detail may cause them to distrust their subconscious taking over the job of execution.  Good execution simply CAN NOT occur in a thinking/evaluating state of mind.  It CAN'T.  You must allow your body to do what you have trained it to do in practice.  (For God's sake don't confuse this with muscle memory, because there is NO SUCH THING, nor the weird electrical impulse thingy).  We train our brains in practice what to do to achieve a goal we desire.  We perform, evaluate the performance, and attempt to hone techniques.  We are never able to hone the execution.  The execution is a result.  Through practice, we train our brain how to tell the body to do many things.  Practicing some of them in small detail.  But in the end, we cannot cognitively control all the movements going on in our body.  At some point, for it all to work together, we have to turn it over to the brain to operate everything we have independently trained it to do, from trigger pull, to hip movement, to sight alignment, all at the same time.  This requires turning off the analytical/thinking part of the brain to operate on its own, or subconsciously.  This requires trust.  Most of this trust comes from repetition or having done whats being asked in the same environment.  The brain has seen us do something correctly 100s of times, it knows how to execute that.  If we apply stress, always in the form of outcome, that's our thinking part trying to control execution.  That part of the brain SUCKS at execution.  So we have to build the trust in practice, repetition, AND understanding.  If you tell someone they are not doing what they think they are doing, and they value your opinion, you might have just wrecked their ability to trust allowing the subconscious state to take over.  I think that's what I'm getting at with you, not that you are in any way wrong, or that we disagree.  I think you will rise above needing such specifics if you stay with the game.  its like the line in the Matrix, "Neo, I'm telling you when you are ready, you wont have to. [dodge bullets]"

 

Thanks for the discussion.  Love different perspectives.

 

Ben

 

Edit - awe hell!!  I know who you are!!  Like Steve says, Steel Challenge is a small world!  The best to you!

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Hammer002

[KelsonAK]

Shhh.....  don't tell.  I'm about half a second away from 100% in RFPI now....

[Hammer002]

2 minutes ago, KelsonAK said:

Shhh.....  don't tell.  I'm about half a second away from 100% in RFPI now....

 

NICE.  I really do love watching your stuff on facebook.  Thats an area I want to get to so bad.  May have the wife convinced after showing some pics and video.  Best of luck to you man.  I cant do the Iron Sights at all, I get two plates in my vision unless I close one eye.  Envy you guys that can, cause I think they can be faster in this game!