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Fasthenk65

tested several bullets /powders for pcc

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At our range we have a pcc group and are in search of the perfect ammo, as we all are... 

 

We settled a bit on 115's plated (or FMJ same result) with slow powders (N350, N340).

 

IPSC rules however state a minimum bullet weight of 115gn...

 

Measuring all brands available in Europe they are most of the time a bit out of spec. Officially at a L3 match you can be disqualified if yr bullet doesn't meet 115 gn.

 

So we went to 123 gn and 124 gn bullets plated and fmj's. Somehow plated bullets are always a bit faster (they expand in the barrel??)..

 

Powder changed into faster ones (N320 / RS12 style). Basically where the slower powder gives more push the faster powders feel snappier.

 

Sight recovery is in essence the same, if rifle gripped real hard maybe the faster powder / heavier bullet combo has slightly faster sight recovery.

 

As for accuracy up to 50 yards no real differences between 115's and 124's.

 

Just liked to share this experience since we are stuck to our houses in Europe, all ranges are closed (like all shops)  so everyone is bored to hell...

 

Stay healthy!

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1 hour ago, Fasthenk65 said:

Somehow plated bullets are always a bit faster (they expand in the barrel??)..!

 

A plated bullet has a thinner/softer copper coating than the jacket on an FMJ. This means that it conforms to the rifling and seals the bore more quickly. Less of the gas escapes around and in front of the bullet, so it’s more efficient.

 

If you use the same powder charge, bare lead bullets are the fastest, then coated and plated, and finally jacketed projectiles.

 

Between brands of FMJ or JHP you can also see noticeable differences in velocity. For instance, among the American practical shooting bullet manufacturers? A Montana Gold FMJ is slower than a Precision Delta. Presumably, the PD has a slightly softer copper jacket.

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I have promising results so far with the Frontier 121 gr FP in my 16" CMMG. These have a slightly thicker copper coating and are somewhere in between plated and jacketed. I have yet to test N320 vs N340 with this bullet. The plan for me is to settle on the most accurate load and then fine tune the buffer system for it.

 

My CMMG is very picky with bullets and very few have acceptable accuracy.... Over 3 inches groups at 25 meters is not uncommon with bullets it doesn't like. 

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I'm new to PCC so I've been experimenting a lot.  Or at least I was before every club I belong to closed on orders.  I tried the light bullet route, the soft load route, the short stroke route, etc.  To me none of them were satisfactory.  During my last practice session I ran through all the test loads I had made up and decided to try some factory 147 JHPs I bought to use in my SCSA Open gun if I ran out of reloads.  I was astonished to find the 147 @ 990fps load put the second shot on top of the first, no matter how fast I pulled the trigger.  The recoil was harder, but straight back.  The dot barely wiggled.

 

So now I'll experiment with all three bullet weights in the 135 to 145 PF range and see which works best.  I've used e3 and Sport Pistol powder to date.  I'll be experimenting with slower powder as soon as the ranges open.

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6 hours ago, mrd said:

My CMMG is very picky with bullets and very few have acceptable accuracy.... Over 3 inches groups at 25 meters is not uncommon with bullets it doesn't like. 

 

My JP seems to hate 147s, and groups much larger than with 115s or 124s.

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Interesting... consensus in EU seems bullet between 115 till 140, not so many shoot  147's and factory 147's impossible to buy over here...

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2 hours ago, zzt said:

I'm new to PCC so I've been experimenting a lot.  Or at least I was before every club I belong to closed on orders.  I tried the light bullet route, the soft load route, the short stroke route, etc.  To me none of them were satisfactory.  During my last practice session I ran through all the test loads I had made up and decided to try some factory 147 JHPs I bought to use in my SCSA Open gun if I ran out of reloads.  I was astonished to find the 147 @ 990fps load put the second shot on top of the first, no matter how fast I pulled the trigger.  The recoil was harder, but straight back.  The dot barely wiggled.

 

So now I'll experiment with all three bullet weights in the 135 to 145 PF range and see which works best.  I've used e3 and Sport Pistol powder to date.  I'll be experimenting with slower powder as soon as the ranges open.

How far away were the targets that you were putting one of top of another?

My tests are done at 15 yds. Acceptable to me are 2" at that yardage if the gun is held properly.

I also use 147 gr coated bullets. 3 gr. of Win. S.T. 930 avg velocity.

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27 minutes ago, Fasthenk65 said:

Interesting... consensus in EU seems bullet between 115 till 140, not so many shoot  147's and factory 147's impossible to buy over here...

 

People on this side of the pond like them for pistols, particularly in USPSA Production division.

 

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1 hour ago, dmshozer1 said:

How far away were the targets that you were putting one of top of another?

 

50 yards.

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1 hour ago, zzt said:

 

50 yards.

You have a winner if you are talking fast double taps.

I am jealous as are anyone else that has read your results.

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2 hours ago, dmshozer1 said:

You have a winner if you are talking fast double taps.

 

It's not me, it's the ammo.  https://www.targetsportsusa.com/prvi-partizan-9mm-luger-ammo-147-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-pp-r97-p-3087.aspx  and the hold I read about on these forums.  Stock on your pectoral, not your shoulder pocket, forearm extended on the hand guard and pulling the gun back into your chest.  Recoil comes straight back and does not rotate you.  FWIW, the 124 at 123PF loads did not do the same.  The dot rose.

 

Now the trick will be to recreate that load with RN plated bullets, hopefully 124s, because I have a lot of them.  If not I'll use the 147s.  It will be interesting to learn whether it is the bullet weight or the PF range that produces that result.

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From shooting pcc for a few years now, and reading tons of info and peoples thoughts/results, I believe the results are dependent on the PF of the ammo shot being in tune with the buffer system of the rifle, not so much the bullet weight. Great results are obtained by different people shooting a variety of bullet weights. Of course good technique must be used in all cases.

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I used to load something like 4.4gr of N350 under a 115 plated bullet.   I could stack shots on 25 yard targets as quick as I could pull the trigger.    It also had a ton of pierced primers, which caused me to switch to rifle primers.  

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5 hours ago, chevrofreak said:

I used to load something like 4.4gr of N350 under a 115 plated bullet.   I could stack shots on 25 yard targets as quick as I could pull the trigger.    It also had a ton of pierced primers, which caused me to switch to rifle primers.  

What rifle and firing pin are you using that can pierce primers?!

 

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8 hours ago, chevrofreak said:

I used to load something like 4.4gr of N350 under a 115 plated bullet.   I could stack shots on 25 yard targets as quick as I could pull the trigger.    It also had a ton of pierced primers, which caused me to switch to rifle primers.  

4,4?? I need 5,4 to come to PF 130 with a 16" JP GMR-15..?

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2 hours ago, jerseyglock said:

What rifle and firing pin are you using that can pierce primers?!

 

The strange thing is that I have only ever had pierced primers with N350.   I can't explain it.  

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On 3/23/2020 at 1:22 PM, Fasthenk65 said:

At our range we have a pcc group and are in search of the perfect ammo, as we all are... 

 

We settled a bit on 115's plated (or FMJ same result) with slow powders (N350, N340).

 

IPSC rules however state a minimum bullet weight of 115gn...

 

Measuring all brands available in Europe they are most of the time a bit out of spec. Officially at a L3 match you can be disqualified if yr bullet doesn't meet 115 gn.

 

So we went to 123 gn and 124 gn bullets plated and fmj's. Somehow plated bullets are always a bit faster (they expand in the barrel??)..

 

Powder changed into faster ones (N320 / RS12 style). Basically where the slower powder gives more push the faster powders feel snappier.

 

Sight recovery is in essence the same, if rifle gripped real hard maybe the faster powder / heavier bullet combo has slightly faster sight recovery.

 

As for accuracy up to 50 yards no real differences between 115's and 124's.

 

Just liked to share this experience since we are stuck to our houses in Europe, all ranges are closed (like all shops)  so everyone is bored to hell...

 

Stay healthy!

What Overall length did you decide on for the 115's and 124's?

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, chevrofreak said:

I used to load something like 4.4gr of N350 under a 115 plated bullet.   I could stack shots on 25 yard targets as quick as I could pull the trigger.    It also had a ton of pierced primers, which caused me to switch to rifle primers.  

 

According to the VV reloading data the minimum charge for what you're shooting is somewhere between 5.4 to 5.9 grains of N350.  Perhaps you should up the charge weight.

I'm no reloading expert, but could you be getting the occasional detonation?  I know a friend blew up a barrel with an undercharge.

Edited by LowSpeedHighDrag

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I have heard before about undercharges possibly being dangerous, but I don't understand how. It would seem to me that the danger would be just causing a squib, then firing a quick second round without realizing the squib. What am I missing? How could it blow up a barrel?

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5 minutes ago, egd5 said:

I have heard before about undercharges possibly being dangerous, but I don't understand how. It would seem to me that the danger would be just causing a squib, then firing a quick second round without realizing the squib. What am I missing? How could it blow up a barrel?

It is possible with not enough powder in the case that when in the horizontal position "like when you are firing the  gun"

the powder lies flat in the case. Under the flame of the primer. The primer fires over the powder causing a detonation exploding through the top of the case

and your receiver.

NASTY!

Most get away with it because  recoil moves the powder around enough. Ever hear a shooters rounds sounding different? Might be they

are not loading enough powder.

 

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55 minutes ago, Salsantini said:

What Overall length did you decide on for the 115's and 124's?

1,06 in mm 28,69

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24 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said:

 The primer fires over the powder causing a detonation exploding through the top of the case

and your receiver

 

... or possibly out the primer hole?

 

A major detonation could blow up the gun, but maybe a minor one just blows out the primer?

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51 minutes ago, egd5 said:

I have heard before about undercharges possibly being dangerous, but I don't understand how. It would seem to me that the danger would be just causing a squib, then firing a quick second round without realizing the squib. What am I missing? How could it blow up a barrel?

 

With a full powder charge, the burning starts at the base of the powder column and burns more slowly.  If the powder lies flat there would be more powder exposed to the air in the case, and it burns much quicker.  More of an explosion than a controlled burn.

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3 minutes ago, LowSpeedHighDrag said:

 

... or possibly out the primer hole?

 

A major detonation could blow up the gun, but maybe a minor one just blows out the primer?

I doubt the explosion would make it out of the very small primer hole. Even if it did it would contact the bolt face

and that's not good.

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