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Ported 45


Joe4d
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Looking for advice on porting a 45...
Call it a Super, or a ACP or ACP +p, 
I know there been a few factory port jobs like the "V" types,, sorta like the EAA's V'8s
Anyone played with them side by side with a similar non ported gun ?
Purpose is 200-210 pf,, 230-255 weight bullets,, can run any powder from TG to HS6 
Game is pins,,,  front of 4 foot table, gotta go off back, pins arnt replaced much so get heavy

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Mag na port. Up in Michigan does a pretty good job. I've sent a couple of my two and a half inch Smith and Wesson model 19  after they come back those two little ports really kill to recall will, it kill do lift anyway

Edited by usmc1974
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I would look at running a large compensator over ports, ports will help with flip but not with recoil and at 210pf there is a fair bit of that, then run the slowest powder you can something like Blue Dot where you can load up around 11 grains, that should let the comp eat some of the recoil and keep the muzzle down.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Jim, you are going to have a tough time with 45.  It's a low pressure round, so you don't have a lot of options.  I tried a compensated 45 a long time ago.  It wasn't satisfactory, but I didn't know what I know now.

 

I shoot ported guns, comp'd guns and guns with comps and ports.  I also shoot pins, and I can tell you you do not need 200+PF tpo clear them.  What you need is a solid hit with a bullet with a wide meplap, not a round nose.  250gr and higher are hard on the frame.  230gr mas more muzzle rise than I like.  On a 2' table I use 185gr because the sights come back quicker.  For larger tables and 2x4 shoots I use 200gr.

 

Here is how this works.  Barrel ports (poppels) definitely make the gun shoot flatter, but hits you hand harder.  It also lowers velocity.  Comps make the gun shoot softer, but no necessarily as flat as ports.  Definitely not in your case, because you are pressure limited in 45ACP.  Again, you lose velocity.  Since you want a slow powder to make as much gas as possible, you want one that burns clean.  HS-6 is not clean.

 

The goal is to have the sights return as quickly as possible.  I shoot pins with a normal barrel now.  If I was going for flat and as soft as possible given ports, I shoot a 200gr TC bullet over about 7.3gr N350 for about 990fps.  I'd shoot it through a barrel with two 3/16" dia. poppels and a 2-chamber, 2-port comp with the baffles close together.  If you put the poppels one behind the other you get the maximum flattening.  If you make them a V2 you get a little less flattening, but a clearer view of the sights for the next shot.

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I think a better way to look at a compensated (or ported) 45 is not that it is a low pressure round but that it is a heavy bullet round.  That's why compensators appear to be less effective on a 45 compared to a 38 Super. A 230 grain bullet in a compensated 45 will not be as effective at reducing muzzle rise as a 115 grain bullet in a compensated 38 Super at the same power factor (and using the same gunpowder). But it's just a bullet weight issue, not a chamber pressure issue. 

 

If you use the same bullet weights in a compensated 45 and a compensated 38 Super at the same power factor (and using the same gunpowder), the 45 actually has the same (or a wee bit less) muzzle rise than the 38. It is demonstrated and explained here: 

 

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/compensated-45-vs-compensated-38/99515

 

Edited by superdude
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1 hour ago, superdude said:

If you use the same bullet weights in a compensated 45 and a compensated 38 Super at the same power factor (and using the same gunpowder), the 45 actually has the same (or a wee bit less) muzzle rise than the 38. It is demonstrated and explained here: 

 

 That article is full of horse crap.  It is true for the SAME BULLET WEIGHTS at the same PF in each caliber.  Who in their right mind does that?  You would really have to be daft to load a 160gr bullet to major in 38SC.  The author wan't to show that compensated 45 does reduce recoil effectively.  To do that he sets up a straw man with a wholly unrealistic test.  It is gas volume that 'works' ports and compensators.  Yes, pressure does come into play in that more pressure makes the gasses exit faster for slightly more downward force.  Volume is key.  So only a complete idiot word load a 160 in 38SC, because the reduced powder charge, and therefore the gas volume will not be as effective at recoil and muzzle rise mitigation that a lighter bullet with more powder behind it.  Geez, I load 10.2gr AA7 under a 115 for 9mm major.

 

A 160gr 45 bullet is not the best choice for pins.  I don't want to hear any crap about the momentum being even.  So what.  It's energy transfer that is important for pins.  So you want a heavier, and preferably softer bullet.  185 and 200gr of soft lead, or copper plated is the best.  Using AA7 as the propellant, both weights will need 12.x grains to reach 200+PF.  Since they are both going to be the same velocity, I'd go for the 185 just so the sights settle quicker.  If 200PF is okay with the OP, I'd go with the 200 at just under the max +P load, because it will be going slower.  Slower transfers energy better.  Softer transfers energy better.  With a 230 you cannot make as much gas at +P max, so the ports and/or comp will not be as effective.

 

While I'm at it I want to comment on bullets.  I MD a lot of pin matches, and I RO them.  I see people trying all kinds of things for advantage.  One particular shooter believes the horse poo that you need a heavy bullet to clear pins.  So he always shoots full factory 230 jacketed.  I beat him every single time using my 200gr LSWC bullseye loads.  Why?  First, his bullet is going 830fps.  It's jacketed, so it does not transfer energy as quickly.  In fact, it often shatters the pins and they fall over, but don't clear.  Next, his muzzle is so high after each shot, he is slow to recover for the next shot.   My 200gr lead SWC is going about 750fps and clears the pins much better than his load, and more quickly.  So I demonstrated, on the timer, and my load was better.

 

So what happened?  He showed up the next week with full factory 230s, because he was still convinced heavy was better.  A buddy who had been doing the same, saw the demo and showed up the next week with 185s.  He did much better with them.  It even convinced him to go to 185s from 230 for USPSA.

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3 hours ago, zzt said:

 

That article is full of horse crap. 

 

No it isn’t. It’s full of facts. 

 

3 hours ago, zzt said:

 

It is true for the SAME BULLET WEIGHTS at the same PF in each caliber. 

 

?

 

3 hours ago, zzt said:

 

Who in their right mind does that?  You would really have to be daft to load a 160gr bullet to major in 38SC.  

 

You’re implying that it was a recommendation to load 160 grain bullets in a compensated 38 Super. It wasn’t. 160 and 170 and 180 grain bullets were just tools used for testing. There’s no reason to read anything more than that into the article. 

 

 

3 hours ago, zzt said:

 

The author wan't [sic] to show that compensated 45 does reduce recoil effectively.  

 

 

The author has already done that in previous work.  https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/compensators-pressure-gas/99170

 

 

3 hours ago, zzt said:

 

To do that he sets up a straw man with a wholly unrealistic test. 

 

It’s not a straw man argument. It’s an empirical test. The test in the “compensated 45 versus the compensated 38 Super” article was the culmination of three observations. 

 

#1 A compensated 45 with a 230 grain bullet did not reduce muzzle rise as much as a 115 grain bullet in a compensated 38 Super (https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/compensators-pressure-gas/99170). 

 

#2 Light bullets in a compensated gun have less muzzle rise at the same power factor (https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/power-factor-recoil-bullet-weight-compensators/99206). 

 

#3 A caliber versus recoil comparison showed that when driving bullets of the same weight to the same velocity, smaller calibers had less recoil, likely due to using less gunpowder (https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/recoil-comparison-pistol-competition-cartridges/137951). 

 

Since larger calibers require more gunpowder, and this extra gunpowder enhances compensator effectiveness, the author asks whether a compensator could be as effective on a .45 as it is on a .38 when they use the same bullet weight. It seems like a logical progression to try to answer that question. This is all outlined in the introduction to the ’45 v 38’ article.

 

 

3 hours ago, zzt said:

 

It is gas volume that 'works' ports and compensators.  Yes, pressure does come into play in that more pressure makes the gasses exit faster for slightly more downward force.  Volume is key.  So only a complete idiot word load a 160 in 38SC . . . 

 

Again, it’s not a recommendation for people to load 160 grain bullets in their 38 Super.  It’s just the method used in that article for making the test comparison. 

 

The purpose was to test the hypothesis that the reason why a compensated 38 Super appears to be more effective at reducing muzzle rise than a compensated 45 is because they normally use different weight bullets (already demonstrated). The question then becomes what the muzzle rise would be if they used the same bullet weight. 

 

In order to test a compensated 45 versus a compensated 38 Super, experimental design 101 says that you want to equalize other variables that could influence the results as much as possible. The author tried to do that by configuring the guns so they are about the same weight. The compensators were the same design. The bullet types were the same (jacketed, lead) and the same weight (160, 170, 180 grains) and using the same powders (#7, Unique) and primers (Fed 205 small rifle). Thus, the thing that was different was the variable tested = caliber.

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, superdude said:

In order to test a compensated 45 versus a compensated 38 Super, experimental design 101 says that you want to equalize other variables that could influence the results as much as possible. The author tried to do that by configuring the guns so they are about the same weight. The compensators were the same design. The bullet types were the same (jacketed, lead) and the same weight (160, 170, 180 grains) and using the same powders (#7, Unique) and primers (Fed 205 small rifle). Thus, the thing that was different was the variable tested = caliber.

 

Believe what you want.  It was a bogus test.  Yes, everything was equalized.  That is what was wrong with the test.  It artificially handicaps the 38, because so much less powder is used.  It may lead some, and obviously you,  to an incorrect conclusion.  Do comps mitigate recoil and muzzle rise in a 45 ACP?  Yes, as anyone who has shot one will tell you.  Are they softer and flatter than a good, usable 38SC load or 9mm major load.  No.  As someone who has shot both, I can tell you that my 115gr @ 1470fps 9mm major load is considerably softer and flatter.

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4 hours ago, zzt said:

 

 

Believe what you want.  It was a bogus test.  Yes, everything was equalized.  That is what was wrong with the test.  It artificially handicaps the 38, because so much less powder is used.  It may lead some, and obviously you,  to an incorrect conclusion.  Do comps mitigate recoil and muzzle rise in a 45 ACP?  Yes, as anyone who has shot one will tell you.  Are they softer and flatter than a good, usable 38SC load or 9mm major load.  No.  As someone who has shot both, I can tell you that my 115gr @ 1470fps 9mm major load is considerably softer and flatter.

 

The 'Compensated 45 vs the Compensated 38' article was not a comparison to see which would shoot flatter with caliber-appropriate bullets. That comparison was already shown in the 'Compensators: Pressure or Gas?' article and is cited in the first paragraph of the 'Compensated 45 vs the Compensated 38' article. 

 

The 'Compensated 45 vs the Compensated 38' article was a comparison to see how they compared when shooting bullets of the same weight.   

 

The two articles address two different questions.  I don't know how to make it clearer. 

 

You either understand that or you don't. 

Edited by superdude
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The compensated 45 vs Compensated 38, has zip to do with the thread., 


Thanks for bringing up actual pin experience ZZT, and also actually comparing a ported and non ported 45 Falcon Pilot,,, and pointing out the ported 45 didnt make much difference Jim...
Actual helpful comments I was looking for.
Anyway,, as it is now I have gone with a 6 inch, bull barrel 1911,,  and am using 255's Bayou's cast bullets, looking at my notes now, probably run around 750,, as heavy as that gun is they kinda thump. Not gonna bother with porting, Probably use AA2 . That or use up the last of my BE86 and American Select.
I have some flat nose 215's, but they arnt 100% I get nose dive failure to feeds.  I have some RN 200 gr SWC, but I loaded them all pretty light to use ina LWT CDR for practice.
Probably play around with 255-230 and 200 loaded to similar PF and go with what feels better. I know in my old heavy longslide Limited gun I went with 170's or 165's,, as It seemed like I was waiting on the slide. Even though I am sure it is just a feeling and not reality. Just like the feel better.

ZZT what about your buddy's 230 loaded slower, say down in the high 6-7oo for about same PF you are shooting ?  Seems would have similar recoil, but more mass.... As well as using cast vs jacketed ?
Seems I recall a minimum safe velocity that you could get bounce back at.
Also,,, MO Bullets lets me order different Brinnel hardness,  what are you using ?  The flatter bullets I am having issues with are softer, however they were marketed, (and I actually bought them) for 45 LC,, I am just making blasting ammo with what I have on hand.

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2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

ZZT what about your buddy's 230 loaded slower, say down in the high 6-7oo for about same PF you are shooting ?  Seems would have similar recoil, but more mass.... As well as using cast vs jacketed ?
Seems I recall a minimum safe velocity that you could get bounce back at.
Also,,, MO Bullets lets me order different Brinnel hardness,  what are you using ?  The flatter bullets I am having issues with are softer, however they were marketed, (and I actually bought them) for 45 LC,, I am just making blasting ammo with what I have on hand.

 

Okay, I'll take that one at a time.  230gr bullets:  I originally was going to go with 255gr bullets because everybody said I needed heavy.  Fortunately, Penn bullets talked me out of it, because they are rough on the frame.  Assuming you want a certain PF to make sure you clear the pins, the lighter the bullet, the faster you are ready for your next shot.  So you have to make a compromise.  You need enough energy transferred to be certain you clear the pin, and you want the sights back on the second pin as quickly as possible.  With 230s you will feel like you were waiting on the slide, just like you did in Limited.  Geez, when I tried 230s at around 168PF I felt like I could take a nap before the slide returned.  185s work well for me, but I think 200s work better.

 

Bullet hardness and shape:  I had my absolute best results when using Rainier plated bullets.  The lead was dead soft and the plating was thick enough to not lead.  I started with 200gr and then went to 185s when I ran out.  I now use both.  They both cleared pins with authority.  Several shooters would always come up and ask what I was using, because I was knocking them into the next county.  These were truncated cone bullets with a fairly wide meplap.  Before that I was shooting Penn lead bullets.  This one did a superb job.  https://www.pennbullets.com/45/45-caliber.html   It was just hard enough to prevent leading, and soft enough to do the job.  I loaded them to 1.200" OAL and they fed perfectly.  This one was not available when I was shooting lead, or I would have tried it.  https://www.pennbullets.com/45/45-caliber.html  I don't know if it would feed, but it sure has a wide meplap.  Brinell 18 and Brinell 21 bullets do not work as well.

 

Some time in the middle ages Italian engineers were perplexed their cannon balls were bouncing off castle walls and not doing much damage.  It took them a while to figure out a solution.  They made the cannon balls softer.  When they hit the wall they flattened and transferred a lot more energy to the walls.  After that discovery, castle walls were no longer a good defense.  The same thing is true with pins.  You need a certain amount of momentum, and you want to transfer that energy quickly to a well hit pin.  185, 200 or 230 are up to you.  They all will work. You will probably like one better than the others. That pretty much rules out jacketed bullets.

 

If you are looking for a hotter load than what I use, try this.  WLP, 5.0gr Solo 1000, 200ge lead TCPB bullet for 860fps, 172 PF.  SDs were always single digit.  That was my USPSA SS major load.  It is accurate  and consistent.  I did think it too much for pins.  Your 255gr 191 PF load would have been way too much for me.

 

As far as a minimum velocity goes, I don't know.  I will say that my current standard bullseye load of CCI 300, 3.4gr e3 under a Dardas 200gr LSWC goes 726fps (145PF) and returns SDs in the 4.0/5.0 range.  It knock pins down, and I've never had anything bounce back.  BTW, I have only used that load on 2' board when I was remiss in loading the other rounds.

 

As soon as I load enough 9mm major for USPSA and 9mm minor for SCSA, I'll start on 45 again.  I have four loads.  A 185 minor load for steel that has to be rung to score, and pins on a 2' table.  My light 200gr bullseye load.  A heavier, faster 200 TC or RNFP for steel that has to fall to score, pins and 2x4 matches.  Last is the major USPSA load that I hardly ever use any more.  I realize I rambled a bit here, so let me be concise.  If I could only have one pin load it would be a dead soft lead plated bullet with a wide meplap, or the first Penn bullet I mentioned travelling about 760fps; definitely not more than 800.  Have fun experimenting.

 

BTW, loading 255, 230 and 200 to the same PF I use is a great plan.  All will work.  Then you can decide which is fastest for your second shot.  My philosophy is use the lightest bullet you can get away with.  The recoil (at the same PF) is always sharper, but slide action is faster.  That's important for me.  With the guys I shoot against, if you haven't cleared your pins and his hostage in 2 seconds or less, you don't have a prayer of winning.  The fastest I've ever done it from a low ready start is 1.88 seconds.  I didn't win.

 

 

Edited by zzt
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Thanks for the thoughts,   Looks like all my bullets are 18-20 hardness, other than some left over 452, rnflat point 200's that Bayou says are in the 16-17 range.
Probably find the slide sluggish like you did.. Was how I felt shooting my 6 inch 40 with 200's and 180's... Although running Bayou 200 gr TC at  920 fps in my 40, seemed to wack pins pretty well. Was what I used last year.
My other supplier lists a grooveless SWC  probably 205 gr at 12, hardness.
Far as plated,, been burned by them a couple times,, Rainier, and Westcoast... Sizing all over the place, set back or crimp issue,,, just not my thing.
HAve gotten a few shipments from Penn, been years though in fact thats the last of the plain lead I have left.
Will do  some cruising for bullets, was gonna go socially isolate tommorrow,,, but 23 mph winds here, so so good for fishing OR riding a green horse in the woods.
You still running pins ? I shot a western PA section champion ship many moons ago, won my Class... Only because the guy spanking me, slipped and fell and broke the 180 on last stage,,, but hey a win is a win,, and I got a Vegas slot from Area director,,,

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We shoot 3 foot from rear in open,,, 5 pins. 1 foot from rear 5 pins revolver.
My first match I  didnt know rule set so came loaded for pins at front for revolver.  357/ 180's over full charges of 2400. Basically my hog ammo I had loaded. While it cleared some pins, by third string my hands were shaking from the recoil..  (5" 686") Revolver winner said his load was 148 WC and by his charge I figure about 900 fps..   Next match I went with 158 SWC at a more modest velocity,, probably around 1000 fps,, it worked but not super, so went back to 180's,,  this time over WST at between 750 and 800, pretty mild. but dont recall exact.. Now we have a revolver winner,, womps them well,  Although based on this conversation, may have as much to do with the bullet shape as anything. My 180's are near Flat across the top. 

Far as open gun,, talked to Mr Palermo, about our ruleset, my gun, and a bit about me, and he recommended his 230 gr LTC shaped  with the softer 12 hardness.

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I do still shoot pins every time I get the chance.  I am no longer MD, because three years was enough.  Our pin setup is different.  We stand at the low ready (muzzle touching barrel) 15' in front of the pins.  There are four white pins in front of you and a centered black pin (the hostage pin).  To your right or left is another competitor 20' away with the same array in front of him.  At the beep you have to clear your four white pins and the his black pin before he does the same to you.  First black pin to hit the ground loses. So be careful you don't accidentally knock your own hostage pin down.

 

Surprised you had problems with Rainier.  That's all I used in 40 major and minor.  I found them very consistent in weight.  I never measured diameters, but my Hornady bullet feeder did not work with anything over .400", so that must have been consistent.  X-treme is no where near as good.  Berry's is close.  I just ordered some from Everglades and NE Reloading, so I'll see how they are.  If you are going heavy and slow for pins, use lubed lead.  If the lube is good, B12 will not lead.

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