147gr JHP at 1,000fps

[alzo]

I am trying to work up a load using Zero 147gr JHP’s to replicate the standard pressure 147gr HST. I would prefer to stay at standard pressure if possible, and within “book” max loads. I have tried N340, Silhouette, and True Blue. From a 4 inch barrel, I am getting:

4.3gr N340: 960fps

5.5gr Silhouette: 1,038fps (+P)

5.5gr True Blue: 980fps (+P)


Silhouette gives the lowest SD I have achieved with any powder. The only thing that concerns me about it is that I am at the top of Ramshot’s +P range. 

I was thinking of trying BE-86 or N350 next. Given the above, would they be good choices to get to 1,000fps at standard pressure, or is there a better option I should consider? Thanks.

[iflyskyhigh]

AA#7

It’s still a +P load, but 7.1 grs out of a G19X has both Winchester JHP and Hornady XTP’s going almost 1100 FPS.

That’s max loaf according to Western. I’m guessing you could dial that back a little and stay around 1000 FPS.

Seated at 1.150” BTW.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chevrofreak]

BE-86 and N350 are my favorite SD powders, but I lean toward N350.   A 5.1gr charge will get you where you want to be. 

[dave33]

VV 3n38 is what you need. Their published load data shows a starting charge of 6.3 gr pushes a 147 XTP JHP 1171 FPS and you can go higher if need be. 
 

Back when I shot 9major 3n38 was my go to powder, I’ve even loaded some 147’s at their max data. Definitely works, no pressure issues at all. 

[alzo]

4 minutes ago, dave33 said:

VV 3n38 is what you need. Their published load data shows a starting charge of 6.3 gr pushes a 147 XTP JHP 1171 FPS and you can go higher if need be. 
 

Back when I shot 9major 3n38 was my go to powder, I’ve even loaded some 147’s at their max data. Definitely works, no pressure issues at all. 

My concern with 3N38 is being at the bottom of the load range, and getting an incomplete/dirty burn.

Edited March 1, 2020 by alzo

[K-Texas]

6 hours ago, alzo said:

My concern with 3N38 is being at the bottom of the load range, and getting an incomplete/dirty burn.

 

Alzo, you're old True Blue buddy here! I'd look at Lyman data for the SPEER 147 gr. TMJ loaded relatively short at 1.115" while they list the Max Standard pressure load for True Blue at 5.6 grs. for 1034 FPS @ 32,500 CUP while SAAMI Max for standard pressure is 33,000 CUP/35,000 PSI.

 

Definitely agree with not using a powder in its lower charge range. And for Super-Sonic at around 1125 FPS I use No 7. I did some testing back in 2017 with a number of different 147 gr. JHPs. I've always liked what REM did with theirs that I refer to as the bubble butt. Take a look and you'll see why. At 1129 FPS and charged with No 7 the jacket and core separated, and I estimated that 1050 FPS was their likely threshold for keeping the bullet intact. Because of the lower velocity, I knew that True Blue would be in a more optimum pressure range and tested with True Blue at 5.7 grs. with a CCI500 and OACL of 1.132"/28.75mm. Velocity was 1058 FPS from a 4.47" Canik TP9sa. ES and SD so were so low that some might not believe it! That bullet is a bit stubby in comparison to the one you're using that I would want to load to at least 1.142"/29mm.

 

In Western data, the pressures are over-estimated, IMO. Many others show standard pressure loads that somehow become +P for Western's. They show 5.0 grs. of SIL as the MAX +P charge with an OACL of 1.130" for the 147 gr. TMJ giving 1006 FPS, and that dog just won't hunt. I don't know if 5.0 grs. of SIL will get you what Western shows, but I'd say that it's very doubtful that pressure is actually +P. It is, IMO, a pretty good indicator that SIL is somewhat limited, and why I don't use it for 147 gr. JHP loads, but I don't load many subsonic where True Blue, according to the Lyman data is in a good pressure range for 1000 FPS. You might want to look at a few articles I wrote for blog.westernpowders.com where I used several different 147 gr. JHPs, although I loaded the 147 gr. HST a good bit faster at an OACL of 1.142". You'll need to go back a few pages.

Edited March 1, 2020 by K-Texas

[MemphisMechanic]

Are you trying to replicate the way the gun feels and tracks when shooting 147 HST?

 

I’ve done exactly that, surprisingly enough with a 115. Stagger HSTs and this load in a magazine, and you will not be able to feel or tell the difference.

 

Data is here:

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[alzo]

Hey Kevin!  It still seems that AA7 and TB would be in the +P area with a conventional jacketed bullet.  For some reason, Western doesn’t list a jacketed bullet in their 147gr data, only plated and Golden Saber.  When I asked them for jacketed data, they kept pointing me to the GS data.

 

My COL is 1.112”

 

It seems like AA7 and TB would be straining to reach 1,000fps from a 4 inch barrel.  I’m looking for an alternative that will do it “comfortably”.  That’s why I am considering N350 or BE-86.  I’m sure 3N38 will do it too, but 3N38 will likely go way beyond what I’m looking for.  I’ve seen a few posts online where users’ actual data with BE-86 was very close to Alliant’s published data.  Before I went and bought some, I thought I’d check if there were other alternatives I hadn’t thought of.

Edited March 1, 2020 by alzo

[alzo]

2 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Are you trying to replicate the way the gun feels and tracks when shooting 147 HST?

 

 

I’m just trying to duplicate performance.....same bullet weight, same velocity, which, I assume should also translate to same point of impact.  The recoil with the loads I mentioned above is pretty close to the factory HST.

[Joe4d]

anything from unique to power pistol will do that. Id probably go BE86,, its really good with coated bullets

[IHAVEGAS]

50 minutes ago, alzo said:

I’m just trying to duplicate performance.....same bullet weight, same velocity, which, I assume should also translate to same point of impact.  

 

Maybe. 

 

Interesting to think about. Different burning speed powders are going to get the bullet up to speed differently. 

[K-Texas]

3 hours ago, alzo said:

Hey Kevin!  It still seems that AA7 and TB would be in the +P area with a conventional jacketed bullet.  For some reason, Western doesn’t list a jacketed bullet in their 147gr data, only plated and Golden Saber.  When I asked them for jacketed data, they kept pointing me to the GS data.

 

My COL is 1.112”

 

It seems like AA7 and TB would be straining to reach 1,000fps from a 4 inch barrel.  I’m looking for an alternative that will do it “comfortably”.  That’s why I am considering N350 or BE-86.  I’m sure 3N38 will do it too, but 3N38 will likely go way beyond what I’m looking for.  I’ve seen a few posts online where users’ actual data with BE-86 was very close to Alliant’s published data.  Before I went and bought some, I thought I’d check if there were other alternatives I hadn’t thought of.

 

Hey, Rob! No 7 or True Blue will get you 1000 FPS from a 4" barrel at Standard Pressure. The difference being that TB will be at a more optimum and higher pressure level.  Now for that ES and SD I didn't want to mention: with 5.7 grs. of True Blue on 10/16/17 when I recorded the temp being 85 degrees with approx. 1350'  of elevation, ES was 1 FPS, so obviously 10 rounds gave an SD of 0 FPS. The only load I've ever made that had an SD of Zero.

 

But with Lyman's max charge being 5.6 grs. for the SPEER 147 gr. TMJ with an OACL of 1.115" . . . might be worth a chrono test to see how fast the EX 147 flies; you might need a slightly lower charge for 1K. 

[MemphisMechanic]

12 hours ago, alzo said:

I’m just trying to duplicate performance.....same bullet weight, same velocity, which, I assume should also translate to same point of impact.  The recoil with the loads I mentioned above is pretty close to the factory HST.

Noted. The 115 load has the same recoil characteristics, and I was trying to duplicate the way the gun will handle at speed. My focus is on training grip and staying used to the timing when the gun recoils.

 

Inside of 15yd it’s POI is very close to the 147 load. You’d need to push it beyond 20yd for the difference to really be noticeable.

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[alzo]

9 hours ago, K-Texas said:

 

Hey, Rob! No 7 or True Blue will get you 1000 FPS from a 4" barrel at Standard Pressure. 

 

But with Lyman's max charge being 5.6 grs. for the SPEER 147 gr. TMJ with an OACL of 1.115" . . . might be worth a chrono test to see how fast the EX 147 flies; you might need a slightly lower charge for 1K. 

The Speer TMJ is a plated bullet.  Plated bullets generally can handle higher charges at lower pressure than jacketed bullets.  And GS bullets even more.  I am already at the max +P load with True Blue for the GS bullet in Ramshot’s load guide, and I’m still not at 1,000fps.  Absent my own pressure testing equipment, I need to rely on the manufacturers’ data.

 

I’m getting 94%-95% of VV’s published velocity for N340.  Applying that same percentage to their data for N350 indicates that N350 should work.

 

The only reason I’m considering BE-86 is that I have seen multiple posts from shooters that indicate that Alliant’s data is realistic, as opposed to VV’s, which is always quite optimistic.  So I thought N350 might be a good choice (I prefer VV powders), and that BE-86 might be a good, less expensive, more readily available backup.  If +P wasn't an issue, I already know that Silhouette will easily give me the velocity I want.

Edited March 2, 2020 by alzo

[K-Texas]

5 hours ago, alzo said:

The Speer TMJ is a plated bullet.  Plated bullets generally can handle higher charges at lower pressure than jacketed bullets.  And GS bullets even more.  I am already at the max +P load with True Blue for the GS bullet in Ramshot’s load guide, and I’m still not at 1,000fps.  Absent my own pressure testing equipment, I need to rely on the manufacturers’ data.

 

I’m getting 94%-95% of VV’s published velocity for N340.  Applying that same percentage to their data for N350 indicates that N350 should work.

 

The only reason I’m considering BE-86 is that I have seen multiple posts from shooters that indicate that Alliant’s data is realistic, as opposed to VV’s, which is always quite optimistic.  So I thought N350 might be a good choice (I prefer VV powders), and that BE-86 might be a good, less expensive, more readily available backup.  If +P wasn't an issue, I already know that Silhouette will easily give me the velocity I want.

 

In the case of SPEER plating, the alloy used is near the same thickness and hardness as most jacket alloys. All I can say is that my velocities tend to match the TMJ velocities about as closely as I would expect from any data. On occasions when I've used Western data the results have been disappointing.

 

Since I mentioned the Sierra and Lyman data I'll give an example with the Sierra 125 gr. JHP. They both use the same OACL of 1.075". Lyman lists a Max Charge of True Blue at 6.2 grs. while Sierra lists 6.6 grs. as Max. Western loaded even shorter, for whatever reason, at 1.035" and show the Max Standard Pressure load as 5.0 grs. while 5.3 grs. is listed as Max in the +P data. That's lower than Lyman's Start Charge.

 

It would help if data providers like SPEER and Sierra gave pressure data while Lyman does. Since it's not listed by SPEER and Sierra, some assume the data is not pressure tested. That is not the case. As far as the Lyman True Blue data for the SPEER 147 gr. TMJ at 1.115" their Max Charge of 5.6 grs. gave them a velocity of 1034. Now, velocity increases are not always linear with the powder charges from Start to Max Charges. And since I loaded longer with the REM 147 gr. at 5.7 grs., one might consider that +P by .1 gr. but that would overlook the longer OACL allowing a greater combustion area. Among the handgun powders I've used, I don't know of any being more linear than True Blue, and it might be worth noting that the True Blue is the same OEM Powder that P.B. Clermont in Belgium furnished to FNH to develop the 5.7 x 28mm which can be quite finicky about pressure stability. So while my load isn't exactly apples-to-apples with the Lyman data, if I interpolate the Lyman Max Charge velocity from the 5.7 gr. charge I used, the interpolation shows 1031 FPS while Lyman shows 1034 FPS for 5.6 grs. All variances considered like their 4" test barrel vs 4.47" in the TP9sa, slightly different OACLs, different jacket alloys and such, that's about as close as it gets in my experience, and why I tend to depend on Lyman data more than others, and the pressure ratings are provided where testing in the 2 different systems used by SAAMI, Max Average Pressure, or MAP, for the 9 x 19mm is both 33,000 CUP and 35,000 PSI.

[K-Texas]

On 2/29/2020 at 10:00 PM, alzo said:

I am trying to work up a load using Zero 147gr JHP’s to replicate the standard pressure 147gr HST. I would prefer to stay at standard pressure if possible, and within “book” max loads. I have tried N340, Silhouette, and True Blue. From a 4 inch barrel, I am getting:

4.3gr N340: 960fps

5.5gr Silhouette: 1,038fps (+P)

5.5gr True Blue: 980fps (+P)


Silhouette gives the lowest SD I have achieved with any powder. The only thing that concerns me about it is that I am at the top of Ramshot’s +P range. 

I was thinking of trying BE-86 or N350 next. Given the above, would they be good choices to get to 1,000fps at standard pressure, or is there a better option I should consider? Thanks.

 

Pardon my double-post.

 

alzo, just looked at those +P charges you listed for TB and SIL and they appear to be for the REM 147 gr. Golden Saber. I can tell you from experience that Golden Sabers load more differently than any bullet you would select for data. The GS has an unconventional shank that they refer to as the driving band. It's much shorter than the typical shank of a 147 gr. JHP, along with the jacket being brass. In my experience, the G. Sabers require a higher powder charge to produce similar velocity and pressure compared to JHPs. Shank length/bearing surface need to be a closer match.

 

 

[alzo]

I agree, but as I said, when I contacted Western for jacketed data, they pointed me to the GS data.  I told them the exact same thing you just told me.  They didn’t even believe me when I told them the jacket is brass.  After I sent them a copy of Remington’s description of the bullet design, stating that it was brass, they still said the GS data was what I should use.

 

In any event, at 5.5gr, I’m already substantially above their Speer TMJ max of 5.0gr.

[alzo]

On 2/29/2020 at 11:58 PM, chevrofreak said:

BE-86 and N350 are my favorite SD powders, but I lean toward N350.   A 5.1gr charge will get you where you want to be. 

Do you have any chrono data with these powders?

[K-Texas]

5 minutes ago, alzo said:

I agree, but as I said, when I contacted Western for jacketed data, they pointed me to the GS data.  I told them the exact same thing you just told me.  They didn’t even believe me when I told them the jacket is brass.  After I sent them a copy of Remington’s description of the bullet design, stating that it was brass, they still said the GS data was what I should use.

 

In any event, at 5.5gr, I’m already substantially above their Speer TMJ max of 5.0gr.

 

Several years back I tried to explain to them the difference between JHPs and Golden Sabers, and they didn't understand. I can tell you that there are people under the roof at Western who are aware of their poor quality data. It's a shame because some years ago they had what I thought was the best ballistician in the business in Johan Loubser whom they got in the deal when they bought Accurate Powders. There is quite a bit of difference in their data from when Johan was with them, and after he left.

 

I typically recommend that someone else's data be used for 9 x 19mm. And as far as their +P data, why would anyone even load to +P with powders that burn faster than SIL and are unsuitable with minimal velocity gains? Makes absolutely no sense. Just an exercise to load up to the SAAMI MAP for 9mm +P. I've never had a single problem in 34 years using Lyman data, and the pressure ratings are is certainly important to me. They go up to 4.4 grs. with N340 and the 147 gr. TMJ.

[chevrofreak]

22 minutes ago, alzo said:

Do you have any chrono data with these powders?

Just the 5.1gr N350 load, which did 1046fps from my CZ P10C.  The load is an 147gr HST at 1.125" over 5.1gr of N350 in a nickel FC case with a CCI SPM.

[alzo]

I was able to find a pound of BE-86 locally.  I loaded up some test rounds and was able to chrono them today.  These are all using Zero’s 147gr JHP loaded to 1.112”.  Temperature was 55 deg F.  Barrel length is 4 inches.  In case anyone is interested, here’s how they came out.

 

4.5gr   938fps   SD = 5.72    ES = 20.2

 

4.7gr   958fps   SD = 14.56  ES = 50.1

 

4.9gr   990fps   SD = 10.45  ES = 39

 

5.1gr   1,018fps   SD = 15.63  ES = 65.3

[Glockster1]

You will need a slower burning propellant like HS6 or Accurate #5. I use trimmed down 38S C brass with a 9X21 length and lengthened chamber for that purpose. 

 

That's a Pro Tip ^

Edited March 8, 2020 by Glockster1

[BryceA]

5 hours ago, alzo said:

I was able to find a pound of BE-86 locally.  I loaded up some test rounds and was able to chrono them today.  These are all using Zero’s 147gr JHP loaded to 1.112”.  Temperature was 55 deg F.  Barrel length is 4 inches.  In case anyone is interested, here’s how they came out.

 

4.5gr   938fps   SD = 5.72    ES = 20.2

 

4.7gr   958fps   SD = 14.56  ES = 50.1

 

4.9gr   990fps   SD = 10.45  ES = 39

 

5.1gr   1,018fps   SD = 15.63  ES = 65.3

 

Looks like you got almost exactly the results they list in their load data! I've been doing the same thing, namely trying to duplicate the feel of a 147 HST. The data that @MemphisMechanic posted does feel very very close to a HST round though I personally didn't like loading WSF near the max load due to the velocity variances being a bit high and I was seeing the beginnings of primer flattening. Just today I tried BE-86 under a 115 FMJ with the same goal and was very pleasantly surprised: good velocities that seem in line with the data and I am essentially at 1200 fps and didn't need to go to max. I'll be buying more BE-86 in the future.

[MemphisMechanic]

7 minutes ago, BryceA said:

The data that @MemphisMechanic posted does feel very very close to a HST round though I personally didn't like loading WSF near the max load due to the velocity variances being a bit high and I was seeing the beginnings of primer flattening.

It is pretty zippy, although it’s well within the safe (tested) pressure range. Perhaps the reason I don’t see this is because I typically run rather hard CCI #550 magnum SP primers. Are you using a Win or Federal?

 

Quote

Just today I tried BE-86 under a 115 FMJ with the same goal and was very pleasantly surprised: good velocities that seem in line with the data and I am essentially at 1200 fps and didn't need to go to max.

Good to know! I chose WSF simply because I had a few pounds lying around, and it was the one powder I had on-hand when I needed this ammo which was capable of pushing a light 9mm at defensive-feeling speeds without exceeding book max.

 

Everything else on the shelf (solo1000, clays, titegroup, Prima V, Ramshot Comp...) was much too fast burning and bought for competition loads.

 

Otherwise a choice like BE-86 or power pistol or similar makes a whole lot of sense.  
 

Edited March 9, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[BryceA]

1 minute ago, MemphisMechanic said:

It is pretty zippy, although it’s well within the safe (tested) pressure range. Perhaps the reason I don’t see this is because I typically run rather hard CCI #550 magnum SP primers. Are you using a Win or Federal?

CCI 500's. I was getting some crazy velocities though: at 5.62gr WSF I was at 1250fps and at 5.76gr (avg of 5 weights) I sent one bullet down range at 1302fps. It was a very cold day (20 F) and I know WSF is inversely temperature sensitive so perhaps that's why, but it was more than I cared to fool with long term. I don't know why I get high variances: I think most people don't have an issue so perhaps it's my setup. I get great velocity consistency from other powders I've tried so maybe I just got a moody pound of WSF.