Competitive Equity

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I'm over 6', and almost 60 years old. I don't have any problem getting off the ground on the clock. I did it twice at 2019 limited nationals.

 

for sure, practical shooting rewards shooters who practice, and who stay in reasonable shape. That's the idea.

Good for you. I really mean that. But that is not the norm in this game.

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

I can't quote Sarge correctly because he put his answers in my quote.  Anywhere, here's what he said:

"BUT FOR AVERAGE HEIGHT SHOOTERS WHO ARE NOT 15 YEARS OLD THIS OFTEN REQUIRES GETTING ON THE GROUND THE LAST STEP SINCE GETTING UP ON THE CLOCKS IS A DEAL BREAKER. THAT SIGNIFICANTLY DISADVANTAGES THEM COMPARED TO A KID OR SHORT FIT SHOOTER."

"Can't do it" and "it is harder because you aren't fit" are two separate things.  Everyone can drop to the ground and get up.  (It might take more work for older people, but we can still do it.)  Short people can't magically become taller.  The two cases aren't remotely the same.

 

"I DON'T THINK THAT WAS THE CASE. SHE STOOD ON THE FAULT LINE. PERIOD. IF SHE IS GOOD ENOUGH TO FINISH THAT WELL SHE IS FULLY CAPABLE OF STANDING ON A FAULT LINE. HELL, EVEN I CAN STAND ON A FAULT LINE."

 

You are using a "well, since she's good, she can deal with it" argument?  That's a little different. "Hey, since you are so good, we'll just make this part harder for you.  No complaining, you gamer."

 

That's not how it works.  "I can stand on a fault line" doesn't have anything to do with the situation at hand. 

 

Fixing the stage so this wouldn't be a problem would have been easy enough to do in the first place.  As someone said, having a step there available to all would have been a simple fix.  We even have a rule about it:

 

6. 2.1.6  Obstacles – Natural or created obstacles in a course of fire should reasonably allow for variations in competitors’ height and physical build and should be constructed to provide reasonable safety for all competitors, Match Officials and spectators.

 

Pretty sure that "hey, you, since you are good we'll just make you run to the front and balance on the fault lines like no one else has to do because you are short" doesn't follow that rule.

 

She shot the stage fine apparently. Literally none of what you said was implied by me. She handled it, let it go. There was an RM at the match I assume? Perhaps he should have had the foresight to have an option available. 

[EEH]

Sarge,,Assume !

[egd5]

7 hours ago, RJH said:

If she could in no way see the targets as presented

If that was the case would that be the same as a disappearing target and she could skip it?

[RJH]

18 minutes ago, egd5 said:

If that was the case would that be the same as a disappearing target and she could skip it?

 

I hadn't thought about it like that, but if you can't see the required amount of target a person might go there

[Matt1]

Skipped from post 7 to the end so maybe this has already been covered [emoji2369]

Why is being a “gamer” considered a bad thing? Do people not think that we are playing a game?

The object is to win. Anything short of breaking the rules is fair.... game.





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[TrackCage]

37 minutes ago, Matt1 said:

Skipped from post 7 to the end so maybe this has already been covered

Why is being a “gamer” considered a bad thing? Do people not think that we are playing a game?

The object is to win. Anything short of breaking the rules is fair.... game.





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Gamer is a term used by those who are unwilling/unable to see outside of the narrow box they picture USPSA to be... from decades ago.

[PatJones]

I am 5 foot 9 and a half adult male. The barrier in question nearly came up to my nipples. Seemed a bit unnecessarily high to me.

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[Joe4d]

i dunno ,  I thought same thing about the gamer thing. Tactical Timmy carry over from IDPA as a way to make themselves feel better when they get smoked by a C class USPSA shooter.

Far as the OP,,   Probably 1000 to 1 the times  a tall person has to scrunch over or squat to shoot a target short people can run up to and just shoot. Boo frikking hooo cry me a river. The whiners come out of the woodwork crying their little eyes out the first time a tall person has a bit of an advantage.. 
Seriously. Suck it up, solve the challenge, or take the penalties. Evidently there was a solution.

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, PatJones said:

I am 5 foot 9 and a half adult male. The barrier in question nearly came up to my nipples. Seemed a bit unnecessarily high to me.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 

OP said Pickett fence. Pickett fence is not nipple height unless one has really low nipples.

  I guess I would have to see this Pickett fence. I figured it was 3 feet tall or so.

[PatJones]

OP said Pickett fence. Pickett fence is not nipple height unless one has really low nipples.
  I guess I would have to see this Pickett fence. I figured it was 3 feet tall or so.

Pickett fence with another piece of plywood attached to the top of it.

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[Nik Habicht]

My theory on this was always that the barrier couldn't be so tall that the shortest competitor in the match couldn't see/shoot the targets while being as close to the wall as it was possible to go in the free fire zone.  Taller shooter would have the advantage here, because they could theoretically stay farther away, and still engage the targets.  If a competitor can't see the targets, then either the stage needs to be modified, a safe platform needs to be provided, or the stage needs to be tossed.  If the stage is modified after competitors have shot it, other rules come into play, regarding required reshoots....

[Sarge]

5 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

My theory on this was always that the barrier couldn't be so tall that the shortest competitor in the match couldn't see/shoot the targets while being as close to the wall as it was possible to go in the free fire zone.  Taller shooter would have the advantage here, because they could theoretically stay farther away, and still engage the targets.  If a competitor can't see the targets, then either the stage needs to be modified, a safe platform needs to be provided, or the stage needs to be tossed.  If the stage is modified after competitors have shot it, other rules come into play, regarding required reshoots....

Which it sounds like was the case in this discussion.

[IVC]

18 hours ago, Sarge said:

Pickett fence is not nipple height unless one has really low nipples.

Let's not bring grandma into this discussion...

 

The fence was high(ish), but nothing too bad. It looks like the intent was to force hosing from very close distance, followed by a pretty long shot on a mini-popper for those who didn't engage it from another location (a slightly slower, but safer strategy for the mini-popper). 

[MHicks]

I followed IVC on the same squad. 5'10" and it was a little awkward but doable. Being 9 or 10 inches shorter would have made it tougher. 

[PatJones]

Let's not bring grandma into this discussion...
 
The fence was high(ish), but nothing too bad. It looks like the intent was to force hosing from very close distance, followed by a pretty long shot on a mini-popper for those who didn't engage it from another location (a slightly slower, but safer strategy for the mini-popper). 

Might have been better to set the targets lower with a lower fence. It's legal to cut the bottoms off the targets if you restore the non scoring border. This can be as easy as a strip of hardcover and it will keep shots off the target stand

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[blasterboy]

A few years back while chatting with a long time IPSC shooter, this topic came up.  He suggested making narrow  ports, starting at ground level, running all the way to the top of the wall.  I thought he was crazy, but the more I thought about it, he's right....I think.  Think about it, you'd never see the tall shooter ducking to get low enough for a port where others are in a normal stance, and the short shooter won't have to advance to walls and shoot on their tippy tows for low targets.

Edited February 27, 2020 by blasterboy

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, blasterboy said:

A few years back while chatting with a long time IPSC shooter, this topic came up.  He suggested making narrow  ports, starting at ground level, running all the way to the top of the wall.  I thought he was crazy, but the more I thought about it, he's right....I think.  Think about it, you'd never see the tall shooter ducking to get low enough for a port where others are in a normal stance, and the short shooter won't have to advance to walls and shoot on their tippy tows for low targets.

Uh, yup...

Diagonal slits are interesting also...

[perttime]

8 hours ago, PatJones said:

Might have been better to set the targets lower with a lower fence. It's legal to cut the bottoms off the targets if you restore the non scoring border. This can be as easy as a strip of hardcover and it will keep shots off the target stand
 

 

Sometimes I see targets behind a low wall/fence, so that they lean back 45 degrees or even more. It takes a little more work to get them mounted that way, though.

[Brooke]

I understand everybody's arguments. However every competitor deserves to be able to see "brown" on a target. In this case the short competitor would still be disadvantaged because of seeing less brown. That can't be helped. I'm 5'8" that's not a midget but its short. I went to a match where I could not possibly shoot three close targets because I could not come close to seeing brown. I reported it in pre match walk throughs and the MD and RM changed it so everybody including a 12 yo competitor had at least a little brown.

 

To me that's how it should be. Every competitor should at least have a chance but the chances won't always be equitable.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Brooke

[Sarge]

6 hours ago, ChuckS said:

Uh, yup...

Diagonal slits are interesting also...

Ports, yes. But shooting over a low wall is a different, fun challenge. 

[RadarTech]

We had a similar issue at the 2018 area 8 match.
A junior shooting PCC and a short wall, with the fault lines away from the wall-
She had to hold the PCC over her head to be able to aim at the targets. Due to a pasting confusion issue- she got a reshoot and then a concrete block was added for a platform.
Since she was unable to see the targets at all this was deemed to not provide competitive equity as she could not even see the target. 2.3.4, 2.3.7 and 4.6.1 are the only rules that mention competitive equity in the rule book.

Under 2.3.1 a course may be modified for ANY reason and changes published from that point forward. See 2.3.2

Note 2.3.3.1 in this change.

One might try to argue that 4.6.1 a barrier failed as a competitor could not see the targets.

Next— in the case of a PCC held over a juniors head shooting at a low target behind a wall— well that to me is an unsafe target presentation—- when you consider ricochets....

But in the end—
I would tell you to call the RM, ask for the “step”. He or she will likely have seen this before.

But hopefully that will be considered in the RMs final walk through...

I have required port openings be dropped lower, fault lines be moved, and other things.

IMHO, if you are doing something to punish that tall shooter or help that short shooter it does not make it reasonable to expect a short shooter to be able to shoot a target if they are not able to see the target...
and those prone targets? Is it a shooting challenge to jump up and run after shooting it? It would be better to Plan your prone positions in a way where someone can end there...

Just my nickel worth...

[pjb45]

Well, I know the young lady.  I have shot a couple of major matches with her and her sister.  I know that TGO mentored them for a while.  She asked an appropriate question. 

Additionally, I have RO'd  her in a few matches.  Never an attitude problem or ego issues.

 

In no way shape or form is she a gamer. 

 

Furthermore, if you do not know her personally or shot with her,  calling her a gamer is not appropriate.  You used the term in a derogatory sense not in a good nature context. 

 

You owe her an apology!  

 

 

 

 

[mesa3gunner]

I was at this match in question the WSSSC and this issue was addressed in Front Sight magazine a month or so ago. The gist of it was that when designing stages be sure that your props be it a wall to shoot over or a barricade to lean out from can be shot by a 4 foot tall 12 year old shooter. 

Besides that it was a very good match. What impressed me most was how the staff handled the horrible rainy weather and mud with no complaints and kept a positive demeanor. 

This crew has my utmost respect and I have volunteered to help next year even though it's a 5 hour drive. You do not find folks like this very often and I believe this club will excell.

God bless these guys and gals.

 

[pskys2]

One thing we must all strive for when producing a COF is that all can shoot it safely.  I always fine tune my targets so the shortest shooter possible, we have had 12 yr old's, can shoot and not worry about a round leaving the range.  Also I make sure the challenge doesn't keep someone from engaging targets.  This is a shooting challenge not gymnastics challenge.