Red dot into the sun

[Thomas H]

20 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

But I have never understood the perception that a small dot is more precise as it pertains to USPSA,  one thing the human brain is disturbingly good at is knowing where the center of a circle is. not kinda where the center should be but amazingly accurately where the center is, so when aiming with a larger dot you brain knows where the center of that dot is without having to think about it.  

When you do the math you also find that even if you didn't know where the center was it wouldn't matter. 

example a12 moa dot (huge by normal standards) is only 6" in dia. at 50yd and  placing that circle precisely in the center of the A zone or calibration circle of a popper at that range is easy, on a 10 yard head box your seeing a 1.2" dot that also fits nicely in the upper A. 

 

The human brain is really good at knowing where the center of a dot is, yes.  However, the bigger the dot, the less good we are.  In addition, we are good at it IF the circle is actually a circle as opposed to something lopsided or with flares.  If it has those (which, for most people, it does, especially as we get older), then finding the center is more difficult.  A small, perfectly round dot is going to allow to a higher level of precision (especially at speed) than a larger one.

 

Regarding how much the dot covers----your measurements and calculations are perfectly correct.  And yet....for most people, if you have an 8MOA dot and are looking at the head of a 25-yard target, the dot pretty much covers the whole head.  The dot SHOULD only be 2" in diameter.  But....it isn't.  So....the discussion about the dot size really does seem relevant.  (Similarly easy way to look at it:  a 3 MOA dot for rifles at 100 yards should only cover 3" of the target, roughly.  And yet, when you look at the target, it covers a lot more than that.)

 

For the most part, what seems to be true is that larger dots get washed out less, and that ends up being more important than sharper functional precision, as larger dots are mostly-precise-enough in the majority of people's hands.

 

 

[gerritm]

2 hours ago, Mcfoto said:

so’s @MikeBurgess, but the thread is getting a little derailed.  As the OP, I’m hearing it’s not dot size. I could be the cheap dot but buying a spendy one won’t necessarily help. The multi-bloom phenomenon that someone described above is what I saw. I still have the front sight on so next time use that to at least get on the paper.

 

Not to totally confuse you. It is a combination of dot size & quality of the optic. I have a DPP 2.5 on my open gun now & absolutely love it. Crisp clear easy to operate dot for 90% of the time. But it does get tougher to find  in super bright Texas sun. Does not lose its brightness just harder to acquire because of the size.

 I have a C-more rail 8moa & a C-more RTS2  6moa on my PCC & SC rifle and have never had a problem in the sun. We also have a Bushnell 6moa on 1 SC rifle & I have had several of the Vortex Viper/Venoms. None of the ones with the larger dots tend to fade. All are good quality. But the red dot bloom is more pronounced in the less expensive dots.Which can also be caused by astigmatism. There are 3 of us that shoot USPSA,3-gun, & SC, so quite a variety of guns & dots.

 

And definitely if you have a FO front sight put a piece of black tape or cover it, especially if it is red. Will show up on really bright days & can be a little confusing.

 

gerritm 

[MikeBurgess]

3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

The human brain is really good at knowing where the center of a dot is, yes.  However, the bigger the dot, the less good we are.  In addition, we are good at it IF the circle is actually a circle as opposed to something lopsided or with flares.  If it has those (which, for most people, it does, especially as we get older), then finding the center is more difficult.  A small, perfectly round dot is going to allow to a higher level of precision (especially at speed) than a larger one.

 

Regarding how much the dot covers----your measurements and calculations are perfectly correct.  And yet....for most people, if you have an 8MOA dot and are looking at the head of a 25-yard target, the dot pretty much covers the whole head.  The dot SHOULD only be 2" in diameter.  But....it isn't.  So....the discussion about the dot size really does seem relevant.  (Similarly easy way to look at it:  a 3 MOA dot for rifles at 100 yards should only cover 3" of the target, roughly.  And yet, when you look at the target, it covers a lot more than that.)

 

For the most part, what seems to be true is that larger dots get washed out less, and that ends up being more important than sharper functional precision, as larger dots are mostly-precise-enough in the majority of people's hands.

 

 

I did mention in the context of USPSA, yes a less than round dot will make knowing the exact center point harder but if you are actually worried about where within .5" your gun is aimed on a 25yd target you are way way better than me or way way slower. but a lot of that is personal preference. 

 

Oddly on my rifle scopes and pistol dots the dot size has been reasonably close to advertised, unless the brightness is up higher than my eye can handle then it seems bigger and less round.

[Jeremyc_1999]

Like others have stated, a larger dot will help.  I also make sure that I have a fresh battery at certain matches that have bays that point towards the sun. 

[Boomstick303]

I ran into this issue with the SRO.  The sun was really low in the sky during it being winter and towards the end of the match.  A big dot appeared after moving into a position.  I realized after I fired the first shot, I was not using the correct dot.  Took 1-2 seconds to find the correct dot and reshoot the target.  I have done some digging and the Sig Romeo 3 Max and Sig Romeo XL seem to not have this issue from what I have read.  I just purchased the Max, so I will be running that when things get back to normal.  I will be testing the SRO versus the Max over the next summer.   There is a pretty good comparison video on YouTube.  SRO vs. Max.

[a_whole_lot_of_freedom]

7 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

I ran into this issue with the SRO.  The sun was really low in the sky during it being winter and towards the end of the match.  A big dot appeared after moving into a position.  I realized after I fired the first shot, I was not using the correct dot.  Took 1-2 seconds to find the correct dot and reshoot the target.  I have done some digging and the Sig Romeo 3 Max and Sig Romeo XL seem to not have this issue from what I have read.  I just purchased the Max, so I will be running that when things get back to normal.  I will be testing the SRO versus the Max over the next summer.   There is a pretty good comparison video on YouTube.  SRO vs. Max.

First I've heard of this situation. Where did you pick the information up at? Would like to read it myself

[Boomstick303]

7 hours ago, a_whole_lot_of_freedom said:

First I've heard of this situation. Where did you pick the information up at? Would like to read it myself

What is you question exactly?  The issue where the Max does not have a sun dot when the sun is Low?  Or where the SRO does?

 

I would say I have not really read this.  I have heard it from Hwansik Kim on Stoeger's Podcast, and also from the ROMEO 3 Max vs SRO YouTube video.  There is also another post on this forum where someone compared about a half dozen optics by pointing them all into the sun one right after the other to show you how the sun effects the optic.  I have also personally experienced this.  I have pointed the Max at the sun when its low in the horizon and have yet to see multiple dots.  I have first hand experienced double dots with the SRO with the Sun low on the horizon (this was pointing into the sun).  I have a friend who has the ROMEO 3 Max and has not mentioned any multiple dot issues.  One of the reasons he switched from shooting SRO and switched due to the multiple dot issues.  I love the SRO.  It would seem its one of the most durable Optics on the market.  I also don't want to run into the issue of multiple dots again.  That issue will cost you from time to time at no fault of your own.  My only hope is the Sig Romeo 3 optics are as durable as the SRO seems to be.  We will see after this summer.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Boomstick303

[a_whole_lot_of_freedom]

18 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

What is you question exactly?  The issue where the Max does not have a sun dot when the sun is Low?  Or where the SRO does?

 

I would say I have not really read this.  I have heard it from Hwansik Kim on Stoeger's Podcast, and also from the ROMEO 3 Max vs SRO YouTube video.  There is also another post on this forum where someone compared about a half dozen optics by pointing them all into the sun one right after the other to show you how the sun effects the optic.  I have also personally experienced this.  I have pointed the Max at the sun when its low in the horizon and have yet to see multiple dots.  I have first hand experienced double dots with the SRO with the Sun low on the horizon (this was pointing into the sun).  I have a friend who has the ROMEO 3 Max and has not mentioned any multiple dot issues.  One of the reasons he switched from shooting SRO and switched due to the multiple dot issues.  I love the SRO.  It would seem its one of the most durable Optics on the market.  I also don't want to run into the issue of multiple dots again.  That issue will cost you from time to time at no fault of your own.  My only hope is the Sig Romeo 3 optics are as durable as the SRO seems to be.  We will see after this summer.

Was just wondering where you got the cross reference data from. You explained it clearly in your reply

 

[zzt]

Well, I'll add my two cents.  Things that absolutely do not work on white steel in the sun (low or high) are the 6 MOA Slideride and the RTS2v4.  A Burris FF3 with a new battery is good.  A DPP 2.5 at max is good.  So are the 5 MOA SROs.  The dot doesn't shatter at max brightness and it doesn't grow.  The dot is a duller red than the DPP.  With the DPP I feel like I'm looking at the dot.  With the SRO I fell I'm looking at the target with a dot superimposed on it.  I have a Railway 12 MOA on my PCC for SCSA and I think it the cat's meow.  I have a 2 MOA on my RFRO gun.  It is bright enough, but it dazzles.  Sliderides and the like need the snap on sun shade.

 

BTW, regarding big dot being imprecise:  I once benched my bullseye 22 pistol at 50 yards on a B-16 target using a 16 MOA dot.  The dot was larger than the black on the target.  50 rounds later I had a sub-1" group outside to outside.  No flyers.

[usmc1977]

Not a personal dig at you in any way, just you post brought it to the front of my mind, and you are very far from alone in feeling this way,  
 
But I have never understood the perception that a small dot is more precise as it pertains to USPSA,  one thing the human brain is disturbingly good at is knowing where the center of a circle is. not kinda where the center should be but amazingly accurately where the center is, so when aiming with a larger dot you brain knows where the center of that dot is without having to think about it.  
When you do the math you also find that even if you didn't know where the center was it wouldn't matter. 
example a12 moa dot (huge by normal standards) is only 6" in dia. at 50yd and  placing that circle precisely in the center of the A zone or calibration circle of a popper at that range is easy, on a 10 yard head box your seeing a 1.2" dot that also fits nicely in the upper A. 

Although I have no personal experience with this subject I do have experience in the theory. When shooting a target with open sights at 500 yards, you aim at the center of the target...not the 10...or in USPSA the A-zone. Your eyes and brain know where the center of the center is without being able to definitively point at the center with your sights. Working the equipment like this is in the psychology of shooting. I very much appreciate your response because it is a best of all worlds situation. You get a big dot to fight the sun and it forces you psychologically to trust your own god given centering instinct....you just have to train with it. In my case I have VERY little time behind a red dot so I have no customs to break.


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[Dazhi]

Personal experience:

If shooting into the sun is a common scenario for you, like me, then SRO is the worst.  I sold mine and went back to Venom for that reason. 

Viper was horrible into the sun - a huge glare taking up most of the lens and I could not even see where the dot was.  Sold mine the same day I took it to the range.

DPP had glare belt around the edge of the lens.  Not a deal breaker.  Just a bit messy.

Venom and R3Max are the cleanest I have tried so far for shooting into the sun a lot.