Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Red dot into the sun


Mcfoto
 Share

Recommended Posts

First match with a red dot, first shot was a classifier into the sun. Couldn’t see a thing. Mike. Second shot at least got a delta. Otherwise, once I found it, was really impressed. Particularly on lots o steel stages. Anyone have a suggestion for aiming into the low sun with an optic? You think in winter in Oregon I wouldn’t have this issue...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What size MOA was the dot? Here in Texas we shoot into the very bright summer sun all the time. Found that 6moa is minimum & 8moa or bigger is better. Some go with 10moa. I have a DP 2.5 and fades fast with the sun. I have had  4moa dots and same problem. 

 

gerritm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

It’s a 6. Wasn’t an issue once the sun got up a bit. Just that first thing, sun raising over the berm right in your face.

Seems most if not all brands will reflect the sun off the emitter and cause some sort of an issue. In my experience the SRO will show multiple dots but they seem to be separate dots and may be easier to tell the difference between the two. While the DPP seems to just light up a large portion of the lens and it’s more difficult to be able to find the right dot/spot to use for aiming.

 

I’ve only had it happen a time or two during a match but it’s been inconvenient. Early morning and bays facing east do not play well with dots. I use 2.5 MOA dots. I would not like using larger dots. Hearing someone mention a 8+ MOA dot sounds crazy awful!  I’ll just suffer thru it. Though, we’ll see how bad it is at this year’s national’s. Every bay faces east or west there so, early mornings and late afternoon are gonna be problematic. 

 

 

Edited by B_RAD
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Seems most if not all brands will reflect the sun off the emitter and cause some sort of an issue. In my experience the SRO will show multiple dots but they seem to be separate dots and may be easier to tell the difference between the two. While the DPP seems to just light up a large portion of the lens and it’s more difficult to be able to find the right dot/spot to use for aiming.

 

I’ve only had it happen a time or two during a match but it’s been inconvenient. Early morning and bays facing east do not play well with dots. I use 2.5 MOA dots . I would not like using larger dots. Hearing someone mention a 8+ MOA dot sounds crazy awful!  I’ll just suffer thru it. Though, we’ll see how bad it is at this year’s national’s. Every bay faces east or west there so, early mornings and late afternoon are gonna be problematic. 

 

 

We have several USPSA ranges that some of the bays face the morning sun. Size matters. More important to see the dot in all conditions than it is to have a precise aim point especially in USPSA. You can always turn it down, can't turn it up if you don't have it.

 

And yes all red dots are not created equal. My 6moa Burris is not near as bright as my DPP 2.5. I have a C-more RTS & a regular C-more with both have 6moa and the RTS is a more precise dot than the regular C-more. The Bushnell 4moa is also not near as bright, but we use it for a SC open RFP so not as important. 

 

Several of my shooting buddies have 8moa C-mores just for that reason. Turn them down in darker/overcast days or indoors.

 

The regular C-more on my PCC has a hood that snaps on to help with the sun.

 

gerritm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Knowing the brand and model of the offending Red Dot sight is a key detail that is needed to provide accurate recommendations. Also accept the fact that some Red Dot sights absolutely suck when it comes to dealing with sun glare. There is a reason why some red dots are "Cheaper" than others. This is one of those primary reasons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, gerritm said:

We have several USPSA ranges that some of the bays face the morning sun. Size matters. More important to see the dot in all conditions than it is to have a precise aim point especially in USPSA. You can always turn it down, can't turn it up if you don't have it.

 

And yes all red dots are not created equal. My 6moa Burris is not near as bright as my DPP 2.5. I have a C-more RTS & a regular C-more with both have 6moa and the RTS is a more precise dot than the regular C-more. The Bushnell 4moa is also not near as bright, but we use it for a SC open RFP so not as important. 

 

Several of my shooting buddies have 8moa C-mores just for that reason. Turn them down in darker/overcast days or indoors.

 

The regular C-more on my PCC has a hood that snaps on to help with the sun.

 

gerritm

Just saying I personally don’t like larger MOA. Not an issue of trying down or up. Though, I do adjust brightness depending on sun/overcast. I don’t like the larger dots. Seems less precise. Turning it down does not change how big the dot is.  That’s just my taste. 

Edited by B_RAD
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Mcfoto said:

Vortex viper. I’m going on the cheap to see if I even like CO. Are you suggesting once I crack my wallet open a bit more, this won’t be as much of an issue?

Even the best dots are gonna have some sort of an issue. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A bit of a side point on getting a red dot to work (for old eyes) and in adverse conditions, if money is an issue, and it is in my case. I have three Romeo 1s. One on each gun and a backup in case of a malfunction (and they do). My point is I'd rather not re outfit by dumping a $K plus into X3 of the latest damn thing. 

 

So, the problem I run into is when the summer suns angle is shining on the targets or white painted steel and reflecting back into my lens and eyes. It washes out the dot to a large degree. The dot is very pale and blending into the background target. A new latest $400-$500 6 mil dot may help but I was wondering if there was a lower tech solution like blue blocker glasses to get more contrast. I've been training with a blue blockers on my home range in anticipation of the summer season but the sun isn't a problem with the targets angle at my home range. Don't know if it will work or not. Any body else tried this or know of another trick to get better contrast when the sun is intense on the target?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

Vortex viper. I’m going on the cheap to see if I even like CO. Are you suggesting once I crack my wallet open a bit more, this won’t be as much of an issue?

 

Those Vortex viper sights are known to not be very bright in direct sunlight conditions. Use your fellow squad mates to test out the dot brightness of different brands and models in those high sun glare conditions. That is the best way to actually see which sights are better than others in the exact same lighting conditions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, CHA-LEE said:

 

Those Vortex viper sights are known to not be very bright in direct sunlight conditions. Use your fellow squad mates to test out the dot brightness of different brands and models in those high sun glare conditions. That is the best way to actually see which sights are better than others in the exact same lighting conditions.

We have had Vortex Viper & Venom red dots. Great warranty. They are not bad, but one issue is window size. They have very small windows & especially on carry optics with a moving slide & recoil are tougher to acquire. So bigger window & brighter dots are easier to acquire. 

 

So good idea to check what others are using, buy once cry once. 

 

gerritm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, gerritm said:

We have had Vortex Viper & Venom red dots. Great warranty. They are not bad, but one issue is window size. They have very small windows & especially on carry optics with a moving slide & recoil are tougher to acquire. So bigger window & brighter dots are easier to acquire. 

 

So good idea to check what others are using, buy once cry once. 

 

gerritm


well that’s not hard here. Sig optics is just down the road so that’s what most are using. Just not ready to spend more on the optic than the gat...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Just saying I personally don’t like larger MOA. Not an issue of trying down or up. Though, I do adjust brightness depending on sun/overcast. I don’t like the larger dots. Seems less precise. Turning it down does not change how big the dot is.  That’s just my taste. 

Not a personal dig at you in any way, just you post brought it to the front of my mind, and you are very far from alone in feeling this way,  

 

But I have never understood the perception that a small dot is more precise as it pertains to USPSA,  one thing the human brain is disturbingly good at is knowing where the center of a circle is. not kinda where the center should be but amazingly accurately where the center is, so when aiming with a larger dot you brain knows where the center of that dot is without having to think about it.  

When you do the math you also find that even if you didn't know where the center was it wouldn't matter. 

example a12 moa dot (huge by normal standards) is only 6" in dia. at 50yd and  placing that circle precisely in the center of the A zone or calibration circle of a popper at that range is easy, on a 10 yard head box your seeing a 1.2" dot that also fits nicely in the upper A. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Not a personal dig at you in any way, just you post brought it to the front of my mind, and you are very far from alone in feeling this way,  

 

But I have never understood the perception that a small dot is more precise as it pertains to USPSA,  one thing the human brain is disturbingly good at is knowing where the center of a circle is. not kinda where the center should be but amazingly accurately where the center is, so when aiming with a larger dot you brain knows where the center of that dot is without having to think about it.  

When you do the math you also find that even if you didn't know where the center was it wouldn't matter. 

example a12 moa dot (huge by normal standards) is only 6" in dia. at 50yd and  placing that circle precisely in the center of the A zone or calibration circle of a popper at that range is easy, on a 10 yard head box your seeing a 1.2" dot that also fits nicely in the upper A. 

I would admit that I’ve never tried it. I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said but in my mind, it seems like the larger the dot, means the more room for error. Kind of an aim small miss small thing. You don’t want to aim for center of brown. You aim for center of available A zone. (In most cases). 
 

 

as for the sun causing issues. The SRO will have a dot from reflection off the emitter even with the dot off. That has nothing to do with dot MOA. That’s just a reflection. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have tried the vortex, the burris ff3s and holson, and have settled on the old regular CMORE slideride or railways, when I start having trouble seeing or finding the dot in bright daylight I usually need to change the battery. It may be fine in low light or indoors but a low battery sucks in bright light.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have that issue with my current Viper, the whole glass blooms red with multiple brighter blobs when facing the low sun, even to an extent dryfiring in my low ceilinged basement, building a ledge with black tape over the emitter helped but was dumb. Curiously my first Viper which I shot through winter at the same ranges never had the problem, was also much brighter turned all the way up.'Its a back-up gun now.

 

Have been shooting with a Holosun 407c since Oct, haven't had an issue yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, B_RAD said:

I would admit that I’ve never tried it. I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said but in my mind, it seems like the larger the dot, means the more room for error. Kind of an aim small miss small thing. You don’t want to aim for center of brown. You aim for center of available A zone. (In most cases).

 

12 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

Not a personal dig at you in any way, just you post brought it to the front of my mind, and you are very far from alone in feeling this way,  

 

But I have never understood the perception that a small dot is more precise as it pertains to USPSA,  one thing the human brain is disturbingly good at is knowing where the center of a circle is. not kinda where the center should be but amazingly accurately where the center is, so when aiming with a larger dot you brain knows where the center of that dot is without having to think about it.  

When you do the math you also find that even if you didn't know where the center was it wouldn't matter. 

example a12 moa dot (huge by normal standards) is only 6" in dia. at 50yd and  placing that circle precisely in the center of the A zone or calibration circle of a popper at that range is easy, on a 10 yard head box your seeing a 1.2" dot that also fits nicely in the upper A. 

 

Mike, it's no use explaining facts to people who just are sure of what they know even without any personal experience.

 

I just smile and wave...............

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On my 3gun shotgun for slugs and when i shot limited in 3-gun I had a smaller MOA red dot due to shooting at distance, anything bigger than a 2.5 or 4MOA @ 100 yards and out would cover the whole target so not good, but for USPSA where 90% of your shots are within 10-15 yards the larger dot is great. You will also find that you will acquire the bigger MOA dot much faster especially on the 2nd shot in CO when you are dealing with slide movement & recoil.

 

gerritm

14 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

Not a personal dig at you in any way, just you post brought it to the front of my mind, and you are very far from alone in feeling this way,  

 

But I have never understood the perception that a small dot is more precise as it pertains to USPSA,  one thing the human brain is disturbingly good at is knowing where the center of a circle is. not kinda where the center should be but amazingly accurately where the center is, so when aiming with a larger dot you brain knows where the center of that dot is without having to think about it.  

When you do the math you also find that even if you didn't know where the center was it wouldn't matter. 

example a12 moa dot (huge by normal standards) is only 6" in dia. at 50yd and  placing that circle precisely in the center of the A zone or calibration circle of a popper at that range is easy, on a 10 yard head box your seeing a 1.2" dot that also fits nicely in the upper A. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

 

Mike, it's no use explaining facts to people who just are sure of what they know even without any personal experience.

 

I just smile and wave...............

I shoot pretty good with the dot I use. Just haven’t seen the need to use a larger one. That’s all. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

 

Mike, it's no use explaining facts to people who just are sure of what they know even without any personal experience.

 

I just smile and wave...............

whats funny is that the number of shooters that are better than me that prefer small dots is pretty impressive, there are a few high level hold outs but I believe there were more 3moa or smaller dots on the open super squad than larger ones, so my opinions and understanding should not weigh to heavily on anyone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

 

Mike, it's no use explaining facts to people who just are sure of what they know even without any personal experience.

 

I just smile and wave...............

I wasn’t actually correct in my saying I’ve never tried the larger dots. I have. I had a RTS2 I think it was a 6 moa. I had a Sig Romeo Pro that was also a 6(I think). 
 

I just like the 2.5 on the DPP. I shot it all last year. Didn’t seem to hold me back. 
 

I’ve also tied the SRO and have a Vortex Venom. 
 

that’s 5 different dots. Have you tried 5 different dots?  Most people haven’t. 
 

Like every thing else, dot size is most likely irrelevant. 
 

smile and wave all you want. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Mike, it's no use explaining facts to people who just are sure of what they know even without any personal experience.

 

I just smile and wave...............

Hahaha!  That's some funny stuff right there. 

@B_RAD is a Grand Master.  I think he might have some personal experience and a legit opinion on what he prefers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, BJB said:

Hahaha!  That's some funny stuff right there. 

@B_RAD is a Grand Master.  I think he might have some personal experience and a legit opinion on what he prefers.


so’s @MikeBurgess, but the thread is getting a little derailed.  As the OP, I’m hearing it’s not dot size. I could be the cheap dot but buying a spendy one won’t necessarily help. The multi-bloom phenomenon that someone described above is what I saw. I still have the front sight on so next time use that to at least get on the paper.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:


so’s @MikeBurgess, but the thread is getting a little derailed.  As the OP, I’m hearing it’s not dot size. I could be the cheap dot but buying a spendy one won’t necessarily help. The multi-bloom phenomenon that someone described above is what I saw. I still have the front sight on so next time use that to at least get on the paper.

Do not use the front sight, Do not look at your gun, look only at the target and let your index bring the dot to you, Shooting a dot is a 100% target focused activity, the biggest mistake most new to dot shooters make is looking at the gun or dot not the target.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...