Wilson bullet proof extractor 9/38S for 40

[Makicjf]

Howdy,

  I'm finding I need to have pretty loose tension to have good feeding. I rolled and polished the bottom "feed" edge end reduced the bottom edge of the claw.  The extractor I cleaned up and put in the 9mm is flawless. Nice tight hold and even under slow , hand controlled feed, the round glides fully under the extractor and eases into the chamber.

The 40, with the same prep and good tension, locks up under slow hand feed. It will feed if the slide is dropped. In order to get smooth feeding, I have to have exceptionally light tension.

I *think* I know why .

The overall width of the 9mm rim is .390; the overall width of the 40 s&w csae rim is .420-.422 depending on which piece I measure. The 40 brass slides under the claw where I increased the round and polished, but binds with good tension. I bet the area in front of the claw needs reduced: here's where my math skills fail:. Do I need to reduce the area .15 ( half of the difference) or , less likely the full .30.  I could just reduce until function, but that wouldn't improve my understanding.

Thanks!

Jason

 

[cheers623]

Your description is a little unclear as to the situation. Just checking that you’re describing two different guns, one in 9mm and one in .40 that you’ve fit two different extractors in? Assuming the answer is yes, then it could have more to do with the amount of tension you have on the extractor that’s in the .40. I use 9/40 extractors in most all of my guns and do the same polishing/rounding/etc that you describe and don’t distinguish between those two calibers when doing the work. The only variable for me is the amount of tension I set on the case rim with my Weigand extractor tool. I can literally pull an extractor out of any of my 9 or .40 pistols and swap them out with no problems other than small tension adjustments. Don’t know if that helps or not?

 

I was always taught by a few different gunsmiths that you should adjust the tension to let the round feed almost all the way into the chamber and then stop just short of closing. Then with a slight flick of the wrist the slide would close. Unscientific...I know, but always seems to work for me when setting the tension. Again, hope some of this helps. It seems like everything else you’re doing is correct. Maybe just overthinking how much fitting and filing to do. 

 

Good luck!

[Makicjf]

33 minutes ago, cheers623 said:

Your description is a little unclear as to the situation. Just checking that you’re describing two different guns, one in 9mm and one in .40 that you’ve fit two different extractors in? Assuming the answer is yes, then it could have more to do with the amount of tension you have on the extractor that’s in the .40. I use 9/40 extractors in most all of my guns and do the same polishing/rounding/etc that you describe and don’t distinguish between those two calibers when doing the work. The only variable for me is the amount of tension I set on the case rim with my Weigand extractor tool. I can literally pull an extractor out of any of my 9 or .40 pistols and swap them out with no problems other than small tension adjustments. Don’t know if that helps or not?

 

I was always taught by a few different gunsmiths that you should adjust the tension to let the round feed almost all the way into the chamber and then stop just short of closing. Then with a slight flick of the wrist the slide would close. Unscientific...I know, but always seems to work for me when setting the tension. Again, hope some of this helps. It seems like everything else you’re doing is correct. Maybe just overthinking how much fitting and filing to do. 

 

Good luck!

You are correct.  I'm fitting 2 extractors to 2 different guns.  A 9mm , which went easily. The 40 is being problematic. 

 I was thinking about simply running 500 rounds through the 40 and seeing if it wore in to smoother feeding, but woke up this morning wondering about the case rim difference .

 I'll try to clarify my question.

I think the rim of the 40 (.420+/-) is rubbing and binding on the right ( if it was a horse's foot I'd say 'abaxial') side of the extractor body under the claw.  When I place the claw on the 9 mm case I can see a hint of daylight under the rim, between the rim and the extractor bidy; With the 40, the rim touches the extractor body.

My question: should I reduce the extractor body under the claw where the case slides in until I can see a bit of light between the case rim and extractor body?

In this article, they call the area in question the "belly" of the extractor.

  http://www.brazoscustom.com/magart/ejection perfection.htm

Clear as mud, I'm certain!

Thanks for the help!

Jason

Edited February 19, 2020 by Makicjf

[zzt]

Here is a diagram of a properly setup extractor.

 

The extractor should be pushed a little to the right by the case.  You adjust that by removing material from the locating pad, E.  The hook should touch the case in the extractor groove.  The rim of the case should be centered in C, or.with 030" to .035" clearance to the hook.  Sometime the hook is too long and must be filed down to spec.

[Steve in Allentown PA]

17 hours ago, zzt said:

The extractor should be pushed a little to the right by the case.  You adjust that by removing material from the locating pad, E.  The hook should touch the case in the extractor groove.  The rim of the case should be centered in C, or.with 030" to .035" clearance to the hook.  Sometime the hook is too long and must be filed down to spec.

 

That diagram is specifically for .45 ACP.  9mm and .40 extractors are not often set up the same way i.e. they are usually set up so that the case is in contact with the extractor claw not with the tensioning wall.

 

Also, I believe the .030" to .035" clearance you cite is actually the distance from the tensioning wall to the edge of the claw.  In other words, it's height of the claw for a .45 ACP extractor.

 

We all know that extractor tension is important to proper functioning.  Another very important aspect of fitting an extractor is setting its deflection which you describe as pushing the extractor "a little to the right".  How much is "a little"?  The case should push the extractor outboard about .010".  You can read all about the nuances of internal extractor fitting here.

[zzt]

6 minutes ago, Steve in Allentown PA said:

That diagram is specifically for .45 ACP.  9mm and .40 extractors are not often set up the same way i.e. they are usually set up so that the case is in contact with the extractor claw not with the tensioning wall.

 

That is not what I wrote.  I said "the hook should touch the case in the extractor groove".  How could the case be in contact with the tensioning wall?

 

The case 'should' be pushed to the right a little, but it doesn't have to be.  If you ever fit an EGW HD extractor, you'll know why.

 

8 minutes ago, Steve in Allentown PA said:

Also, I believe the .030" to .035" clearance you cite is actually the distance from the tensioning wall to the edge of the claw

 

Incorrect.  Reread my statement.

 

You set up extractors for 9, 40 and 45 the same way, unless they are EGW HD or Aftec.

[cheers623]

Wow! This is some of the best technical conversation I’ve seen on this forum! I’m learning too! Thanks guys!

 

Regarding the differences in fitting/tensioning between .45 and 9/40, I’ve seen mostly adjusting the contact between the case rim and locating pad on .45 and some .40 where there is usually more room between the extractor nose and the web of the case. On a lot of guns in 9mm/.38 super, I’ve seen and done it myself where the contact/tension between the case and extractor is at the claw/hook and the web of the case, hence why you radius the bottom of the claw/hook. Also, depending on brand of extractor, I’ve had to remove a bit of material from the front of the nose of the extractor to allow room for this contact point in web area of the case. Sorry to add further confusion!

[Steve in Allentown PA]

48 minutes ago, zzt said:

That is not what I wrote.  I said "the hook should touch the case in the extractor groove".  How could the case be in contact with the tensioning wall?

 

Oops.  I didn't read closely enough.  My goof.  Sorry.

 

I was focused on the image that came from one of my posts and assumed you had interpreted it as being for a 9mm.

 

Some high-end 1911 'smiths do fit 9mm extractors so that the rim is in contact with the tensioning wall instead of the edge of the hook being in contact with the flat area of the case in front of the rim.  This requires delicate work and results in a relatively low claw height.

 

 

48 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

The case 'should' be pushed to the right a little, but it doesn't have to be.  If you ever fit an EGW HD extractor, you'll know why.

 

I use EGW heavy duty extractors almost exclusively.  I have fit many of them.  Unless the extractor actually touches the case it will not be able to apply any pressure (tension) against the case.  Without tension there is potential for ejection problems.

 

 

48 minutes ago, zzt said:

Incorrect.  Reread my statement.

 

I admit I had a tough time trying to figure out what you were describing by 030" to .035" clearance to the hook.  Now I see what you were getting at.  Perhaps an easier way to achieve the same dimension is to simply measure the distance from the breechface to the extractor hook which should be .060" in 9mm and .065" in a .40.

 

 

48 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

You set up extractors for 9, 40 and 45 the same way, unless they are EGW HD or Aftec.

 

Aftec is a special animal with which I have no experience so cannot comment on.

 

However, in my experience, your blanket statement about setting up all calibers the same is open for debate.  Conceptually, they are all the same but the details are different and the details are not insignificant.

[zzt]

I'm not sure I understand what c is saying.  IMO, the hook 'should' touch the case in the extractor grove.  It is okay if the edge of the rim touches C, as long as that 'touching' does not move the hook away from the case.  I prefer there to be just a tad (.001"-.002") clearance on C to account for differences in case rim width.  That gives you maximum engagement of the hook.  Sometimes the hook is too long and proper hook contact with the case results in there being a gap between the rim and C.  If so, file the hook down to spec.

 

EGW recommends .030" to .035" (others vary slightly) between the top of the rim and the hook face.  When feeding, the cartridge rotates up under the extractor so there has to be enough clearance to allow that.  Too little and you have problems, or the extractor is too short.  Too much and the extractor is too long for that slide.

[Steve in Allentown PA]

8 minutes ago, zzt said:

I'm not sure I understand what c is saying.  IMO, the hook 'should' touch the case in the extractor grove.

 

The "C" area is commonly used to provide contact between the case rim and the extractor in .45 pistols.  It is not commonly used for 9mm and .40 pistols.  As you point out, for the 9mm and .40 extractors the edge of the claw is what contacts the case.

 

Contact point between the extractor and the case:

.45 -- case rim and tensioning wall

9mm and .40 -- extractor groove and claw edge

 

 

8 minutes ago, zzt said:

EGW recommends .030" to .035" (others vary slightly) between the top of the rim and the hook face.  When feeding, the cartridge rotates up under the extractor so there has to be enough clearance to allow that.  Too little and you have problems, or the extractor is too short.  Too much and the extractor is too long for that slide.

 

The image below shows how I determine whether or not an extractor is too long or too short.

 

For a ,45 ACP extractor I want a minimum hook-to-breechface distance of .075".  I'll allow it to be as long as .080" but no more.  As you point out, the clearance allows for the case rim to enter the extractor at an angle and rotate up into place.  If there's not enough clearance, the pistol can experience push feeds with the cartridge rim ahead of the extractor.  If the clearance is excessive, the front of the extractor will bump into the case bevel which causes problems.  The Goldilocks rule is in effect for extractors: not too little, not too much, just right.

 

If need be, I'll will modify the extractor by filling/filing its firing pin stop slot to move the extractor forward or backward as required.  I measure the hook-to-breechface distance using gauge pins as I describe in the link I posted above.

 

9mm and .40 extractors would follow the same basic procedure but using different hook-to-breechface distances.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Steve in Allentown PA

[ltdmstr]

1 hour ago, Steve in Allentown PA said:

 

The "C" area is commonly used to provide contact between the case rim and the extractor in .45 pistols.  It is not commonly used for 9mm and .40 pistols.  As you point out, for the 9mm and .40 extractors the edge of the claw is what contacts the case.

 

Contact point between the extractor and the case:

.45 -- case rim and tensioning wall

9mm and .40 -- extractor groove and claw edge

 

Some people do it this way, mainly because a well-known gunsmith advocates this approach, and most people don't know any better.  That doesn't make it right.  Also, adjusting extractor tension doesn't require springs, gauges or measuring tools.  It can easily be done by hand.

[Steve in Allentown PA]

12 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

Also, adjusting extractor tension doesn't require springs, gauges or measuring tools.  It can easily be done by hand.

 

True enough.

 

However, setting deflection does require the ability to accurately measure it.  I use a simple metal gauge that I slide up the breechface between the left guide block and the tensioning wall to determine the amount of deflection on a .45 extractor.  The wide "rims" on these gauges are precision ground so I can accurately determine deflection.  These gauges have a hole drilled through each of them so I can string them all together to keep from losing them.  Dustin Housel (HS-Custom) made these.

 

If you set the extractor's deflection to .010" or a smidge less, you'll have a difficult time bending the extractor so much that feeding will be compromised (especially with the EGW HD extractors).  With this small amount of deflection the extractor will function perfectly across a relatively wide range of tension.  But, if the extractor has excessive deflection, the pistol will likely experience random, intermittent, and unexplained failures-to-feed and/or return-to-battery.

 

When I fit an extractor I spend a lot of time getting the deflection set as perfectly as possible.  Then I just bend the extractor to add tension with not a care about measuring the resulting tension.  Off to the range for test firing using factory 230gr FMJ where I observe the ejected case flight paths and am acutely aware of the feel of the pistol as it cycles.  If there is any hesitancy at all during feeding, I'll unbend the extractor slightly and put more rounds down range to see if that cures the hesitancy.  I can't remember the last time I had to do that.

 

[Steve in Allentown PA]

39 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

Some people do it this way, mainly because a well-known gunsmith advocates this approach, and most people don't know any better.  That doesn't make it right.

 

It sounds like you're saying this is the wrong way to do things.

 

I'm always willing to learn so please feel free to enlighten me on the right way to do things.

[ltdmstr]

I'm also always willing to learn.  But I've yet to have anyone present a convincing argument as to how having the extractor hook dig into the case recess facilitates feeding or smooth operation of the firearm.  Particularly in light of the fact that it can be set up to function 100% reliably without doing that.  As for setting tension, you can get a very accurate feel when sliding a case up onto the extractor hook by hand.  After you've done it a few times, you can easily tell the difference that results from even a slight tweek.  For the amount of tension, all you have to do is insert a case up onto the extractor hook and flat up against the breech face, then hold the slide horizontal.  If the case stays up against the breech face, then the tension is adequate (more is not better).  Simple as that.  Been doing it that way for 20+ years and it works 100% for 9/38/40/45.

Edited February 20, 2020 by ltdmstr

[Steve in Allentown PA]

32 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

But I've yet to have anyone present a convincing argument as to how having the extractor hook dig into the case recess facilitates feeding or smooth operation of the firearm.

 I agree.

 

I've often thought the extra work needed to get a 9mm extractor's tensioning wall  to contact the case on its rim rather than having the edge of the claw contact the case at the bottom of the case's extractor groove was better.  Contacting the case rim results in the force exerted by the extractor's tension to be applied perpendicular to the left guide block.  Contacting the case ahead of the rim puts this force at an angle which makes the cartridge tip to the left.

 

The thing is, it's faster and easier from a manufacturing perspective to make the claw touch the case ahead of the rim.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Steve in Allentown PA

[Steve in Allentown PA]

43 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

As for setting tension, you can get a very accurate feel when sliding a case up onto the extractor hook by hand.  After you've done it a few times, you can easily tell the difference that results from even a slight tweek.

 

Once again, we agree.

 

Do you pay any attention to setting the extractor's deflection?

[ltdmstr]

I do, but only when there's too much tension and it doesn't change when I bend the extractor body.  My concern is really the amount of tension on the case vs. the amount of deflection.   

[CHA-LEE]

For 9mm & 40 extractors I have always setup the hook tip (Area B in drawing above) and the pad behind the hook (Area C in the drawing above) so that they contact the rim and web of the case at the same time. This usually ensures maximum hook engagement and smooth feeding while using a wide range of different brass manufactures. In my experience setting the proper pinch depth is far more important than the pinch force. If the pinch depth is set properly then you can usually get away with a wide range of pinch force settings and it will still feed and extract reliably.

 

From what the original poster is describing in his 40 cal extractor setup is sounds like the pinch depth is too deep. If increasing the pinch force (Bending it inward) dramatically affects the feeding smoothness while the rim of the case gets pushed under the extractor hook, then the pinch depth is too deep.

 

I also want to point out that the location of the extractor tunnel compared to the breach face position can be inconsistent from one slide to the next. I have had slides where the extractor tunnel was cut too far in towards the center line of the breach face and brand new, unmodified, extractors already had too much pinch depth. I had to weld more material onto the pinch depth pad on the extractor in order to properly set the pinch depth. This level of fiddling is usually well beyond the skill set of your average gun owner and fixing it should be left to a qualified gunsmith. This is all to say that as much as we hope that parts are "Drop In" with a little bit of adjustment needed, 1911/2011 guns often prove to require much more fitting to make stuff work properly. 

[Steve in Allentown PA]

29 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

I do, but only when there's too much tension and it doesn't change when I bend the extractor body.  My concern is really the amount of tension on the case vs. the amount of deflection.   

 

We do it differently but we end up in the same place.

 

Sounds like a win-win.

[Steve in Allentown PA]

16 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

For 9mm & 40 extractors I have always setup the hook tip (Area B in drawing above) and the pad behind the hook (Area C in the drawing above) so that they contact the rim and web of the case at the same time. This usually ensures maximum hook engagement and smooth feeding while using a wide range of different brass manufactures. In my experience setting the proper pinch depth is far more important than the pinch force. If the pinch depth is set properly then you can usually get away with a wide range of pinch force settings and it will still feed and extract reliably.

 

Very interesting.  Contacting both points at the same time.  Very cool.  I'm thinking your technique allows for variation in case dimensions such that the contact point between the extractor and case will either be at the tensioning wall or at the claw edge depending on the case dimensions.  So no matter what's going on with a case it will be controlled by the extractor.  That's brilliant.

 

I think your "pinch depth" is the same thing is my "deflection".  Different words describing the same thing.

 

I too have had to deal with extractor tunnels being in different locations.  Not too long ago I had to fit a couple of Wilson BP .45 extractors to a pair of Caspian slides but I couldn't because the locating pads on the Wilson's were too short to make contact with the walls of the tunnels.  My welding skills are non-existent so I swapped them out for a couple of EGW extractors.  George designed these parts to be oversized in certain areas which saved my bacon that day.

[zzt]

4 hours ago, Steve in Allentown PA said:

If need be, I'll will modify the extractor by filling/filing its firing pin stop slot to move the extractor forward or backward as required.

 

Better to use a different extractor.  Filing the slot where the FPS goes just adds slop.  The extractor won't stay there.  If it moves backward you risk a failure to feed.

[Steve in Allentown PA]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

 

Filing the slot where the FPS goes just adds slop.

 

 Yup.  That's why I fill on one side of the slot and file on the other side of the slot.  Silver soldering in a piece of steel of the required thickness to move the extractor fore or aft the correct amount is the key.

[Makicjf]

20 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

For 9mm & 40 extractors I have always setup the hook tip (Area B in drawing above) and the pad behind the hook (Area C in the drawing above) so that they contact the rim and web of the case at the same time. This usually ensures maximum hook engagement and smooth feeding while using a wide range of different brass manufactures. In my experience setting the proper pinch depth is far more important than the pinch force. If the pinch depth is set properly then you can usually get away with a wide range of pinch force settings and it will still feed and extract reliably.

 

From what the original poster is describing in his 40 cal extractor setup is sounds like the pinch depth is too deep. If increasing the pinch force (Bending it inward) dramatically affects the feeding smoothness while the rim of the case gets pushed under the extractor hook, then the pinch depth is too deep.

 

I also want to point out that the location of the extractor tunnel compared to the breach face position can be inconsistent from one slide to the next. I have had slides where the extractor tunnel was cut too far in towards the center line of the breach face and brand new, unmodified, extractors already had too much pinch depth. I had to weld more material onto the pinch depth pad on the extractor in order to properly set the pinch depth. This level of fiddling is usually well beyond the skill set of your average gun owner and fixing it should be left to a qualified gunsmith. This is all to say that as much as we hope that parts are "Drop In" with a little bit of adjustment needed, 1911/2011 guns often prove to require much more fitting to make stuff work properly. 

After reading through the encyclopedia of knowledge here, I had come to the thought that you stated ;" his 40 cal extractor setup is sounds like the pinch depth is too deep".  I put the original extractor back in and the feed cycle is smooth.  The factory extractor doesn't have a tensioning pad, but appears to simply rely upon the bend for tension.  

  Can I reduce the claw height to change the pinch depth, or am I misunderstanding the suspected differential diagnosis?

Thanks for all the input, though most of it is over my head!

Jason

[zzt]

Jason, you bend the extractor so that when the round slides up and under the hook, the extractor is pushed slightly to the right.  At that point the edge of the hook should be in contact with the case in the extractor groove.  At that point the edge of the rim should just touch, or be about 1 or 2 thou away from C.  If you can't get there with additional bending, remove material from E until you can.

[Glockster1]

The amount of drag your cases have in and out of your extractor should be tensioned based on the recoil spring pounds. Those two go together hand-in-hand. The heavier the spring, the more tension you can put on it. Otherwise too much tension with a 10 pound spring, you will probably have feeding and malfunction issues during firing. And also your case head stamps all being different may contribute to malfunctioning in that area.