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Flea

How To Eliminate Seeing Two Targets

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3 hours ago, Blackstone45 said:

A crystal clear front sight is more important than a crystal clear target. Having perfect sight alignment is much more important than having perfect sight "placement". Because a small error in sight alignment will translate to a large error downrange.

^^^ This is a very important concept and it's pure geometry - sight alignment error is error in angle of your shot which propagates with distance, while the shot placement error is just that, a small linear displacement on the target itself. It's also why you focus on your front sight and not your rear sight - both contribute to the error in shot angle because one of them will be slightly fuzzy, so you want the one that is farthest (front) to be crystal clear in order to minimize the alignment problem from the inability to have both sites in focus at the same time. 

Edited by IVC

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3 hours ago, Blackstone45 said:

Bullseye shooters will generally use the 6 o'clock hold, with their point of aim somewhere in the white below the black bull. This provides them with a good reference point to aim at, without requiring them to focus on that point. The other reason they use 6 o'clock hold is that it puts the black sights against a white background.

There are two reasons for 6 o'clock hold in bullseye: (1) The distance is known, so 6 o'clock sights can be dialed in very precisely, and (2) lining up bottom of a circle on a flat front sight is much more accurate alignment than trying to guess where the center of a circle is (it's not just having "black on white," it's about having a very accurate and repeatable reference point which is formed by having the circle just touch the top of the front sight). 

Edited by IVC

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2 hours ago, Ssanders224 said:

Our eyes are pretty neat. Focal distance and convergence distance can be different at any given time, or they can be the same.

This is another extremely important concept that many shooters are not aware of - we have two eyes that can move (somewhat) independently and each one can focus at different distance. Normally, when we look at an object, both eyes point directly at the object (even if it's slightly cross-eyed on closer objects) AND both eyes focus at the distance of the object, so we see a single object and it's crisp. However, one can force the eyes to converge (look at) distant object such as target, while focusing (seeing it clearly) on a closer object such as sights. 

 

Once you start experimenting with shooting with both eyes open, you have to be able to control these two parameters independently IN ADDITION to being able to control the duplicate "ghost" images that result from forcing your eyes to do unnatural things. That's quite a bit of theory and required practice to make it work well... 

Edited by IVC

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On 2/16/2020 at 8:28 AM, Don_B said:

This is exactly what I did many years ago and it has worked very well for me. Takes about 15-20 minutes for my eyes to adjust to the glasses when I first put them on. 

Yeah but are you any good?🤣😇

Maybe you should give me your Infinity guns so you can finally improve.

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I used this vision training tool to teach my eyes in focusing at an object without seeing double. I bought it from amazon. Tie one end of it on a door knob or something else and hold the other end just below your nose.

 

image.jpeg.35dda0a5b83684849bc8d9cd154aa132.jpeg
 

image.jpeg.bc00b6ebc779603f580eca39d1decfea.jpeg

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1 hour ago, pjb45 said:

Yeah but are you any good?🤣😇

Maybe you should give me your Infinity guns so you can finally improve.

Haha. I only said it has worked well for me. Not that I'm any good. It certainly is not the glasses or the Infinity's that are holding be back!

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40 minutes ago, Don_B said:

Haha. I only said it has worked well for me. Not that I'm any good. It certainly is not the glasses or the Infinity's that are holding be back!

Perhaps, I will trade my M&P  Shields for you Infinity, they will fit your delicate hands much better.

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1 hour ago, pjb45 said:

Perhaps, I will trade my M&P  Shields for you Infinity, they will fit your delicate hands much better.

Ok! My tiny little hands and I will certainly keep that in mind. 😂😂

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A lot of good followup posts here.

 

Before I understood the concept of being able to focus and converge on different things, I tried very hard to focus and converge on the front sight at the same time, because that's what I was always taught ("to focus on the front sight"). With two eyes open, this resulted in me seeing two targets, and it was almost impossible to shoot this way because I got very confused about which target to aim at. It was a lot easier for my brain to ignore the extra pair of sights when converging on the target instead.

Edited by Blackstone45

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6 hours ago, George16 said:

I used this vision training tool to teach my eyes in focusing at an object without seeing double. I bought it from amazon. Tie one end of it on a door knob or something else and hold the other end just below your nose.

 

image.jpeg.35dda0a5b83684849bc8d9cd154aa132.jpeg
 

image.jpeg.bc00b6ebc779603f580eca39d1decfea.jpeg

Interesting. How long did it take?

 

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It doesn’t take that long, probably a couple of month since I was doing it daily for at least 15-20. The key is doing it regularly. Best if you can do it 1-2 twice a day for about 15 minutes.
 

You can google “eye convergence training” and read up on the articles about it. It helps a lot in learning more about focusing our vision at an object at close range. Studies have shown that it’s an effective tool. Like I stated in my previous post, I’m glad my eye doctor is also a shooter. He really helped me a lot.

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I never thought about focusing and converging at different points, before. I must have picked it up just from trying to see what I need to see.

 

I recall it took me a while to learn keeping both eyes open as a kid with airguns. I don't want to see double targets, so my eyes apparently aligned to eliminate that. I don't want to see double sights, so my brain apparently learned to ignore the extra one.

 

The only time that I've had trouble with this, in recent years, was a stage where I had to lean hard around corners, shooting one handed, and supporting myself on a rope. Somehow, I got disoriented, and started consciously choosing which eye to use.

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1 hour ago, perttime said:

 

 

The only time that I've had trouble with this, in recent years, was a stage where I had to lean hard around corners, shooting one handed, and supporting myself on a rope. Somehow, I got disoriented, and started consciously choosing which eye to use.

Yeah I ran into a similar problem recently. I was shooting around a barricade and messed up my positioning so that it was blocking the view of my right eye. But because my left eye was unobstructed, my brain just went with seeing through the left. Until I brought my sights up in front of my right eye. Then my brain got very confused.

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23 hours ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

You will only see two targets if your eyes are "converging" on something other than the target (they shouldn't be). 

You have to teach your brain to split your focus distance (sights), and your convergence distance (target). This comes naturally to some, and takes some practice for others. 

 

Again, FOCUSING on the sights, and CONVERGING on the sights isn't a good recipe. 

 

Practice by holding the tip of a pen up at arms distance, with another object 10-15' behind it. 

This might feel very frustrating or impossible at first, but stick with it. 

Look "through" the pen at the object 15' away. The pen will be blurry, and there will be two of them.  Now, pull the pen into focus, but do not LOOK at the pen. There will still be two pens, but they will be clear. There will only be one of the distant objects, but it will be blurry. Try bringing the pen in and out of focus, and in and out of convergence. 

 

 

 

 

Sorry...when you say "pull the pen into focus", what exactly do you mean? Literally move the pen closer to my face?

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So this was interesting yesterday at the range. I took out my contacts and put on a pair of cheap 2.0 power readers. I put cloudy scotch tape over my left (non-dominant) eye to eliminate seeing two targets. I was slow-fire shooting a commander size 1911 in 9mm with either 115gr or 124gr ammo (I don't remember) at the target which was 7 yards away in an indoor range. The splatter target is 3". This string of 10 rounds I focused intensely in a tiny visible blemish on the fiber optic front sight. The target was fairly blurry. For context, I've basically been only shooting since November and I'd say I have shot about 2,500 rounds (about 500 in that 1911). To me it looks like I count 9 holes so it's possible I completely missed on one round (unless the hole to the left of the red dot is in fact 2 holes :).

 

This is very good for me. Now it would be nice to be able to do this without tape over the glasses.

IMG_2759.jpg

Edited by Flea

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This is a timely conversation for me. I've been shooting open for many years and recently, 2 months ago I picked up my single stack to get ready for the upcoming WSSSC at LdF. To my dismay, it was a baffling experience to put it mildly. My front sight was blurry enough that I needed to get my first eyeglass prescription, and got Decot to make me glasses. Still no progress. I didn't see double sights or targets, I thought I was seeing clearly, but all too often it took 6 or 7 seven rounds to hit a popper, or I'd have a nice group in the D zone....all the while I saw my sights lift off the target!

 

As it turns out, my eye dominance situation is changing. The transparent tape over my left eye, just enough to block out the pistol, was the fix for me.

After reading about the double vision described in this thread, I now wonder why I didn't have any of that, if I did, it wouldn't have taken me so long to figure this out.

I'm sneaking up on Super Senior, so I guess it goes with the territory. LOL

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19 minutes ago, Flea said:

 

Sorry...when you say "pull the pen into focus", what exactly do you mean? Literally move the pen closer to my face?

 

No. The use of the word "pull" was probably too literal. 

Leave the pen stationary. Move your focus to the pen with your eyes. 

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3 hours ago, tomface1102 said:

After reading about the double vision described in this thread, I now wonder why I didn't have any of that, if I did, it wouldn't have taken me so long to figure this out.

You almost certainly did. And you almost certainly either lined up the wrong of the two images, or split the distance between the two and your brain thought it was the correct thing to do. 

 

As confusing as it is to rectify and work on the problems with "single focal plane, single convergence point," it's almost equally confusing to recognize it. This is because as we shift focus around in regular life, our brain is trained to understand the double vision as simply a "blurry single object." 

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Just to add... When your eyes converge at a specific distance, everything else is "double vision" simply because the images hitting your eyes will be coming from the off-angles (the definition of not being converged upon). The "blurry close/distant object" is actually two images slightly misaligned, a matter of geometry, and you can recognize it if you really try - you have to just force the brain to analyze the close object without moving your eyes. However, because not paying attention to objects we are not looking at and treating them as "peripheral vision" is our normal behavior, we are trained to completely ignore it and we don't even recognize it unless we try.

 

When you try to shoot with both eyes open and you are forced to deal with two significantly different focal planes, the target and the sights (ignore for the moment the distance between front and rear sight), that's where your brain starts playing tricks on us since it wants to jump focus between the two, not do the unnatural "converge far, focus close." 

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4 hours ago, Flea said:

This is very good for me. Now it would be nice to be able to do this without have tape over the glasses.

There is a reason Olympic shooters (and presumably bullseye shooters) wear an occluder over their non-shooting eye. For static, precision shooting, there is no benefit to having both eyes open. I find it much easier to focus on the front sight when I only have one eye open. As IVC said, when you have both eyes open, your brain wants to start jumping focus between the sights and the target.

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4 hours ago, Flea said:

 

 

This is very good for me. Now it would be nice to be able to do this without tape over the glasses.

 

why? who cares if you have a piece of tape there? Brian enos used to do it. Matt Hopkins still does it.

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I buy the magic dots sheets and use the strip over my left eye. Covering the top half of my glasses.  It’s less opaque than tape and I can wear the glasses all day without issue.  I used to have to switch to regular sunglasses between stages.  Until I started a stage and went...ohhhh f$$k, I didn’t put my shooting glasses on!  Time to squint. Which isn’t easy as I have a slightly droopy eyelid on my right eye.  
 

only main issue is the magic dot sheets are 3 strips and like 25 dots.  Dots are useless imo.

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On 2/15/2020 at 2:20 PM, Flea said:

I'm a pretty new shooter, 58 years old and and shoot a commander size 1911. I was at the range today trying to shoot a 5.5" circle at 10 yards and found it impossible to not see two targets. I shoot with both eyes open and am trying to be as close to 100% front sight focused. I've heard it's not uncommon for a lot of folks to see two targets. I try squinting my left eye and it doesn't help that much. I am right handed and right eye dominant. I've been working with my optometrist to get my eyes dialed in. So far I am using a reading distance contact in my right eye and a distance in my left eye.

 

Can anyone give me tips/tricks/drills that will eliminate or drastically reduce seeing two targets? Trying to shoot a fast string of shots would be totally spray and pray for me with my current double vision. You don't need to say hey get a red dot.

 

Thanks

Im in a similar situation! Im having some success with closing my left eye and opening it as my sights come on target. I have a thin fiber optic front sight and wide center cut in my iron rear sight.  It's a good way of getting around the problem, but improvement is gradual.

 

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My first set of shooting glasses I got were made to the specifications of the "experts" opinions. Got migraines from them. I have since through some experimentation (read money for different lenses) found that I shoot best with lenses that are half my distance prescription in both eyes. This allows me to see both sights and the target well enough to shoot passably and be able to wear the glasses all day with no headaches. I got over the double vision thing by using a target focus and a ghost sight picture. I focus on the target and bring the sights to my eye. This helps also to track the sights and do quick transitions. I noticed that as I pressed the gun out and the sights came up into my peripheral vision I automatically aligned them without focusing on them and broke the trigger as they came on target. It also makes it easy to watch them rise and fall back to the target instead of following them with your eye. At least for me and I started doing this at 58 years old and shot into A class Production (nearly into master class) by age 62. 

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The reading lens is putting your focus too close, as you've found out and others have mentioned. Typically what you'd want for the right eye is half a diopter less than what you normally wear. As an example my prescription is -2.00 in both eyes. For shooting I wear a -1.50 in my right eye. When my right eye was -2.50 I wore a -2.00 in it. If your eyes are very different or your prescription is really strong then that may not work all that well for you. You have to find a compromise. 

 

The vision training helps no matter what issue you are having.

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