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A poll of sorts

Added weight?  

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Ok, first off, I'm not advocating a rule change, any boycotts, letter writing campaigns, or burnings of the rule book while chanting "43oz".  This is just for my curiosity. 

 

Who thinks the "no added weight" rule is somewhat outdated? Today you clearly have stock guns built to take advantage of the 43oz rule - the XFive Legion and the Q5 SF come right to mind. If one gun is allowed to weigh 43oz, why can't the others be made to weigh the same, as long as it's not over 43oz - even if just for, say, ESP? Right now the rules say you can't have a tungsten guide rod in your Glock, but the guy with the Sig can have his whole frame made of tungsten infused space shuttle stuff. You can have an add on magwell, but it can't be made of brass, etc. It just seems kind of - old - like when a 3oz Seattle Slug in your G17 was some sort of unfair advantage. 

 

I understand the logic -- IDPA is for "carry" guns and "nobody" carries 43oz guns (then why is the rule 43oz and not 30oz?). Oh, 43oz is the weight of your average 1911 (but they said 43oz is too heavy, so why even have a CDP class?). Adding weight isn't a real advantage in "small" stages (then why is it banned if it doesn't matter).

 

Like I said, I'm not trying to kick the hornets nest. I enjoy shooting IDPA. Yes, I think of it as a game more than anything else. I understand the rules are what the rules are. I'm just curious what other people think about the subject. 

 

So, what's your opinion:

 

Yea, as long as it's not over 43oz it should be okay.

Nope, leave the rules as they are. 

I could kinda go for a 34oz SSP limit and a 45oz ESP limit......(hmmmm..).

Everybody's going CO so who cares.

 

 

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I was gonna vote leave the rules the same until I read your post. Good point, if other guns can weigh 43oz the why not all of them? 

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we had a saying that sort of covered this in the Navy...choose your rate, choose your fate.

 

If you choose to shoot with a 26oz gun, then that was your choice and you live with the consequences (good or bad) of that choice.

If you choose to shoot with a 43oz gun, then that was your choice and you live with the consequences (good or bad) of that choice.

 

Don't cry because someone chose a different gun that was heavier to aid with recoil control, they may be crying that you have a lighter gun that transitions faster between targets.

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How about giving folks an option, say, “If the empty gun+mag weighs less than 32 oz, you can drop a mag at any time without penalty.” Might just kill two birds with one stone. 

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On 2/14/2020 at 3:19 PM, MikeRussell said:

we had a saying that sort of covered this in the Navy...choose your rate, choose your fate.

 

If you choose to shoot with a 26oz gun, then that was your choice and you live with the consequences (good or bad) of that choice.

If you choose to shoot with a 43oz gun, then that was your choice and you live with the consequences (good or bad) of that choice.

 

Don't cry because someone chose a different gun that was heavier to aid with recoil control, they may be crying that you have a lighter gun that transitions faster between targets.

 

This makes zero sense

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8 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

This makes zero sense

 

No, statements with no explanation make zero sense. If you have a differing viewpoint, then explain it.

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9 hours ago, MikeRussell said:

 

No, statements with no explanation make zero sense. If you have a differing viewpoint, then explain it.

 

You can add weight (up to a limit) to production and CO handguns in USPSA.  You can't in IDPA for no other reason other than because you can in USPSA.

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The way it was explained to be by a rep from HQ is that you wouldn't ever consider adding weight to an existing carry gun. People can and do choose to carry guns of different weights (full-size 1911 vs G26) but "no one" adds weight to their EDC guns after the fact. The 43oz weight limit was to be more inclusive to heavy firearms and not designed as a license to make all guns that heavy. 

Edited by BillR1

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I think if a gun weights 46.5 ounces from the factory like a shadow 2, it should be legal is SSP or ESP,  you add a magwell, change the trigger to SAO, or add an optic then you are ESP or carry optics.

Why isn't a commonly produced gun like a shadow 2 allowed in IDPA unless you carve up the slide to lower the weight?

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On 2/18/2020 at 10:18 PM, hey.moe said:

How about giving folks an option, say, “If the empty gun+mag weighs less than 32 oz, you can drop a mag at any time without penalty.” Might just kill two birds with one stone. 

so you have a scale on the stage or go by what they say?

If you are worried about weight, have carry optics light (for plastic guns} and carry optics for up 45 ounces.

IPSC has a light and regular in carry optics because plastic is a disadvantage.

 

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10 hours ago, BillR1 said:

The way it was explained to be by a rep from HQ is that you wouldn't ever consider adding weight to an existing carry gun. People can and do choose to carry guns of different weights (full-size 1911 vs G26) but "no one" adds weight to their EDC guns after the fact. The 43oz weight limit was to be more inclusive to heavy firearms and not designed as a license to make all guns that heavy. 

 

Yes, they know what everyone does to their carry gun........👺

 

Just like they know no one would every carry in front of the hip.

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4 hours ago, bret said:

IPSC has a light and regular in carry optics because plastic is a disadvantage.

 

That's the opinion of one guy in Germany (their regional director) and it's highly debatable.  But we digress.

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Personally I think gons should just be seperated in divisions by size and weight limits.
Think that type of thought has led to USPSA production being what it is. It would be impossible for an RO to enforce all this stuff. So why bother making rules.
Who here has every gun on the markets factory weight memorized ?
We arnt expected to memorize every guns size. We drop it in a box.
Just pick a max weight and be done with it.

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18 hours ago, bret said:

so you have a scale on the stage or go by what they say?

If you are worried about weight, have carry optics light (for plastic guns} and carry optics for up 45 ounces.

IPSC has a light and regular in carry optics because plastic is a disadvantage.

 

Not really worried per se. It’s a game. Just a tongue-in-cheek comment on how so many competition guns have gotten away from IDPA’s original premise. I shoot local monthly matches where I know most of the competitors. We take folks at their word. No need for routine checks or chrono. 

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IDPA rules are really a mess anyway. My AC said they are no longer enforcing the Bull barrel rule as long as your gun passes the "CCW Sniff test" but there is no specific criteria of what that is. So honestly at that point I don't see any reason to really follow the add on weight rules. 

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18 hours ago, bret said:

so you have a scale on the stage or go by what they say?

If you are worried about weight, have carry optics light (for plastic guns} and carry optics for up 45 ounces.

IPSC has a light and regular in carry optics because think plastic is a disadvantage.

 

 

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18 hours ago, bret said:

Why isn't a commonly produced gun like a shadow 2 allowed in IDPA unless you carve up the slide to lower the weight? Is it a good idea for any sport to change it's rules every time a company releases a product that is just outside of the existing rules?

 

On 2/19/2020 at 5:12 PM, SGT_Schultz said:

 

You can add weight (up to a limit) to production and CO handguns in USPSA.  You can't in IDPA for no other reason other than because you can in USPSA.

 

I don't know that your statement is accurate, but it at least sounds. You've never been able to just add weight to a gun in IDPA, Adding weight in USPSA production is a pretty new thing. 

Edited by Racinready300ex

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For ESP I think the end all rule should be weight and size and that's it. If it makes weight and fits in the box then it counts. Weapon mounted lights, lasers, magwells, weights, tungsten guide rods

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IMHO, I think IDPA, while no doubt very much a gun-game, still tries to be perceived as being much more "real world" then the other gun-games, but the problem is their rules don't truly reflect that. IDPA really needs to take a look in the mirror so to speak, and be honest about whether it really/truly wants its rules to reflect being more on the "real-world tactical/EDC" side of the fence, or the "competition/game" side... because for a while now, many of the IDPA rules don't make a clear case of them really going one way or the other... or maybe better yet, just allow both types of ethos to co-exist with rules that can allow individuals to choose either and/or both?

It seems to defy logic that a few of the most popular IPSC/USPSA Standard/Production pistols that are actually based off "Service Pistols" can't play in IDPA Enhanced Service Pistol because they're a few ounces over 43ozs, and therefore, overly "Enhanced"..? And in "Stock Service Pistol" where more or less the only things "Stock" about the guns is how they appear on the outside, a guy with a 24oz Glock 19 that he shoots and carries everyday because that's what he can afford, has to shoot against a guy with a slicked-up gun that weighs almost double what his does and was purchased solely because it's under 43oz and was specifically designed for IDPA SSP, even though it hasn't been carried or used by an LE Agency or Military Force in "Service" in decades, if ever..? IDK, but I don't buy any of the BS about IDPA trying to keep out the "race guns", because they're in it, they've been in it, and their current rules allow them.

 

I say make it "run what ya brung" and just tighten up and loosen the division rules accordingly so they're more fair: lower the overall weight for SSP to keep it more "stock" (the OP's 34oz suggestion seems reasonable) and allow one to decide how they want to get there if they so choose (i.e. shoot a 34oz pistol, or say, let a Glock guy keep his light attached, etc), and up the ESP weight to 47oz so the popular IPSC/USPSA Production guns can play too... more shooters at matches is better for the sport, and just leads to bigger and better matches!

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I actually give IDPA credit for keeping their weight limit, whereas other disciplines have continued to increase their weight limit as manufactures push the envelope. As it stands, at least 3 manufactures that I can think of (Walther, Sig, and CZ) have guns in their lineup which are made to make weight in IDPA. The weight limit for SSP and ESP is roughly what a stock 1911 weighs, so that seems reasonable to me. 

Personally, I don't think the gun matters that much in IDPA. As long as you can shoot zeroes with your gun, your split times don't factor in that much.  My IDPA guns don't come close to the weight limits, but I've never felt that I was at a disadvantage to the guys with maxxed out x5 legions.

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