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Gun non-compliant at club matches


nasty618
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I guess this is why we called our matches “action pistol” instead of USPSA when we had them. It was just for members to run what they brung as long as it was done safely to get a taste for the game. While we had them we talked about the USPSA matches at other clubs and how their current gun/gear would or wouldn’t work. It gave them a chance to check out our gear to see what they liked before buying the wrong stuff. Most started from the low ready because they didn’t have adequate holsters.



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On 2/13/2020 at 2:48 PM, MikeBurgess said:

This ^^

To me this is about the same as seeing shooters with the sig factory 320 20rd mags in CO, 90% of them are too long and people get popped for it at every L2+ match. But as has been said above 90+% have no idea they are illegal or even what legal would be.


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I started to call  BS on this till I  checked my magazines and there not even close. To fitting the gauge. Guess I'm going to have rethink my mag set up

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1 hour ago, fishhunter3 said:

I started to call  BS on this till I  checked my magazines and there not even close. To fitting the gauge. Guess I'm going to have rethink my mag set up

 

Some sand paper and an EGW mag gauge. We had a few club members not make the gauge, then after a few sessions of sanding, they fit just fine.

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At a local match , enforcing the safety rules is the first priority.  

I know of only 1 person at local matches that even cares if the equipment rules are followed to the letter.  

read ,  Range na***.   If a shooter shows up with a black , square looking gun and says i'm shooting production , I believe him .

Don't know one glock from another and don't care to learn. 

this discussion is getting real old  after hearing it in one form or another for 25 years. 

Offer advice if you think a set up is  wrong , make sure your crap is correct.  and shoot the match.

I'm not taking the RO test this year, and not renewing my membership as uspsa has become a organization that is US ( management ) vs them (shooters). 

and really does not care what the members want .

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A couple weeks after my first match, I was re-reading the rules and discovered that I’d worn my mags in an illegal position (shooting Production, had them in front of my hip bones). No one at the match said a word, and I wish someone had. Didn’t make a bit of difference, I sucked and would have no matter where I wore the mags. If you’re shooting a USPSA match, you should follow USPSA rules; what’s more, you should WANT to follow them, and want to be corrected if you screw it up. 

 

Leading up up to that first match I’d read the rules, but had been more focused on which of my pistols would work in which division. Where I could wear my mags didn’t even register. 

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The "practical" section of our club is purely IPSC. A monthly club match is done by the IPSC book. Then we are prepared for any bigger matches that we go to - or organize by ourselves.

 

At weekly practice sessions, a newbie might get some slack, as long as safety is not violated. Sometimes a new guy might appear with a holster or belt that is not competition "legal" - but is safe to use. He gets to shoot but will also be adviced that he needs to change some items of his gear to be able to compete. In cold times, even some of the old hands might appear at the range with a belt outside a coat, instead of through belt loops on their pants.

 

Some of us also do IDPA at a different club, and might put up some IDPA stuff when the range is not booked for anything else.

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12 hours ago, Dave Campbell said:

At a local match , enforcing the safety rules is the first priority.  

I know of only 1 person at local matches that even cares if the equipment rules are followed to the letter.  

read ,  Range na***.   If a shooter shows up with a black , square looking gun and says i'm shooting production , I believe him .

Don't know one glock from another and don't care to learn. 

this discussion is getting real old  after hearing it in one form or another for 25 years. 

Offer advice if you think a set up is  wrong , make sure your crap is correct.  and shoot the match.

I'm not taking the RO test this year, and not renewing my membership as uspsa has become a organization that is US ( management ) vs them (shooters). 

and really does not care what the members want .

 

Based on the stuff in bold, your club is run very differently from many.  Also based on that, I agree that you shouldn't renew your RO certification or USPSA membership---if you don't like the rules and the way the sport is being run, and you aren't going to work to change those rules, and you aren't going to enforce those rules at official USPSA matches, you should indeed make it so you don't have to worry about any of those things---nor screw up other people because you don't follow the rules.

 

At my club, we make sure we play by the rules, so that everyone is equal under those rules.  If someone's equipment doesn't match their division, we talk to them to see if we can get it fixed and they can stay in that division.  If it can't be fixed, they shoot in Open and have a perfectly good time doing so, and we talk to them about what they need to change to fix it for the next match.    Unsurprisingly, this isn't ever a problem.

 

Our folks don't get in trouble when they go to Level II and up matches, because they are used to simply participating in a match that runs according to the rules, whether that is in the areas of equipment, procedures, or scoring.  It isn't hard to simply follow the rules, and communicating clearly with all competitors about the rules is a nice, simple, clear way to forstall problems.

 

If you see an equipment issue, talk to them about it, and see if you can fix it.  If you can't, shooting Open isn't the end of the world.  And you can have a discussion about how to fix it for their next match.

 

 

 

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On 2/15/2020 at 1:47 PM, waktasz said:

Does any of that matter? A brace is specifically disallowed, regardless if it's a rifle or pistol or AOW or firearm...so yea, a rifle with a brace isn't suddenly a pistol, but it's still not legal for the sport. So what are you saying again?

Just saying silly stuff about legality of various configurations and understanding rifle vs. pistol as far as BATFE is concerned. You can't just put any upper on any lower, not only because of the SBR issues, but also because conversions between pistols and rifles are not quite reversible, but hey, who cares, it's just legal technicalities about felonies...

 

USPSA rules have footnotes about legality of firearms yet it seems to be seen just as a suggestion in parts of the country that don't deal with oppressive gun laws. I shouldn't really care, I know how to remain on the correct side of the government bureaucracy by virtue of living in CA and being forced to know it. I actually thought someone reading the forum might benefit from knowing the legal issues. Guess I was wrong... (No, you cannot legally do some things mentioned in this thread. Here is a search term "can I convert ar rifle into pistol batfe.") 

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I would argue that it has to be on a case by case basis. I would strike up a conversation and make sure they knew that there was a weight limit, but there's no reason to run around telling the MD or RM for something that you can't even verify.

 

I think it's a disservice to others to allow newbies to slide when something is a clear competitive advantage. 1oz over weight isn't a huge advantage. Loading to 15 in production, having a compensator and a magwell in CO, and declaring major but shooting 9mm in Limited are all things that need attention during the match, just like you wouldn't let someone shoot the whole stage outside of the FFZ just because they're new.

 

For a new shooter, being bumped to open would suck, but it's a mechanism in the rules that is designed for this very thing.

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18 hours ago, daytona955i said:

I would argue that it has to be on a case by case basis. I would strike up a conversation and make sure they knew that there was a weight limit, but there's no reason to run around telling the MD or RM for something that you can't even verify.

 

I think it's a disservice to others to allow newbies to slide when something is a clear competitive advantage. 1oz over weight isn't a huge advantage. Loading to 15 in production, having a compensator and a magwell in CO, and declaring major but shooting 9mm in Limited are all things that need attention during the match, just like you wouldn't let someone shoot the whole stage outside of the FFZ just because they're new.

 

For a new shooter, being bumped to open would suck, but it's a mechanism in the rules that is designed for this very thing.

at a local match do you have a scale, calibration weight and follow the procedures in C2?

No scale, then refer to C2 (10)

 

Scale(s):

  1. Scales must be shielded from the wind to prevent errors in measurement while weighing competitor bullets.

  2. Two scales are recommended when available, weighing each bullet tested on both scales.

  3. Whenever possible, the scale(s) should be run on AC power. If using generator power, the scale readings must be monitored for consistency. If using battery power, the batteries must be changed or recharged as necessary to insure consistent results.

  4. A set of appropriate check weights must be used in calibrating the scale(s).

  5. Failing these conditions, or if a scale is not available, each competitor’s declared bullet weight must be used.

  6. If a division as listed in Appendix D requires weighing of a firearm, the same procedure as above will be followed.

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Our club has a box and a mag gauge and I will happily bring out my lab radar and scale for any shooter that lets me know before I leave home.  We fallow the rules.  

 

If its your first match we will let you shoot what you have in a division that it fits.  I will also take as much time as needed with a new shooter so they understand what they need to do to shoot the division they want to be in next time.  So far this seams to get a very good response or the new shooters.  If you talk to them not just tell them they can do it because of X people understand and generally want to do it right.

 

Pulse as Thomas said doing it right at every match makes people have a better experience at bigger matches.

On 2/18/2020 at 9:12 AM, Thomas H said:

Our folks don't get in trouble when they go to Level II and up matches, because they are used to simply participating in a match that runs according to the rules, whether that is in the areas of equipment, procedures, or scoring.  It isn't hard to simply follow the rules, and communicating clearly with all competitors about the rules is a nice, simple, clear way to forstall problems.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 2/19/2020 at 4:43 PM, daytona955i said:

For a new shooter, being bumped to open would suck, but it's a mechanism in the rules that is designed for this very thing.

 Dont think it has to suck
New shooter probably isnt gonna do well in any division. Especially one who isnt into it enough to have even read the equipment rules section.
"Hey I am new"
cool , welcome what kinda gear you got.?
"Oh my XYZ strato blaster 9mm with factory ammo
Ok cool, that puts you in open minor,, load em up, have fun be safe
"Thanks man"

I mean I imagine a new shooter wnt even understand, or care about the scoring and equipment rules. I didnt. I was just remembering my first USPSA match. I showed up with a CDR 1911 9mm and basic IDPA style gear. The MD and I had almost the same conversation, and he checked the blocks for limited minor. Went and shot, didnt really even know enough to be concerned about it.
Although,,, I did go order a Para 16/40 the following monday.
I mean we dont have to be nasty about it,  plenty of ways to handle it without alienating anyone, while still following the rules.

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There are various options open to you in this situation.

The simplest is to place them in the appropriate division. As a newb, they will probably come last or close to it, be they in open or in production 🙂 

You could then explain that their gun is better suited for another division, with the appropriate adjustments (such as magazines, position of kit on belt etc).

 

I'm also a bit nonplussed at the concept of people who never tried IPSC/USPSA just turning up at a match, be it a Level 1 or otherwise.

Over here, to overcome this, we have weekly practice sessions - and noobs do turn up for these with all sorts of weird and wonderful rigs - we are more than happy to let them join in, show them the ropes and advise on equipment adaptations, keeping these as sensible as possible so as not t break the bank.

 

By the time they get to shoot a match, L1 or otherwise, their kit is expected to be division legal.

 

The safety aspects are adhered to religiously - zero debate about that stuff.

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On 2/21/2020 at 8:44 AM, Cliveb said:

I'm also a bit nonplussed at the concept of people who never tried IPSC/USPSA just turning up at a match, be it a Level 1 or otherwise.

 

How else would they start?  What is your suggestion?

 

We absolutely welcome shooters who see what we're doing and turn up for their first match out of the blue.  Every club I've been to has a "new shooters" briefing before every match to make sure those brand new to the sport understand the minimum safety and conduct expectations.

 

In any case people here in the US can't just turn up to a Level II or higher match and shoot a match for the first time ever since membership in USPSA is compulsory for participation in any Level II or higher event.

 

Without turning this into a political discussion, bear in mind that a significant number of this forum's participants are Americans and our laws, culture, and attitudes surrounding firearms are very different from most of the rest of the world.

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depends on the club, I just showed up for my first IPSC match, although I was an experienced IDPA guy and had at least flipped through the rules.
Clubs in Hawaii had a IPSC 101 class. They didnt flat out say it was required , just implied it real strong for new shooters to show up an hour early.. Was actually a pretty good class and intro.

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8 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

How else would they start?  What is your suggestion?

 

We absolutely welcome shooters who see what we're doing and turn up for their first match out of the blue.  Every club I've been to has a "new shooters" briefing before every match to make sure those brand new to the sport understand the minimum safety and conduct expectations.

 

In any case people here in the US can't just turn up to a Level II or higher match and shoot a match for the first time ever since membership in USPSA is compulsory for participation in any Level II or higher event.

 

Without turning this into a political discussion, bear in mind that a significant number of this forum's participants are Americans and our laws, culture, and attitudes surrounding firearms are very different from most of the rest of the world.

My suggestion is found in the line exactly following the one you quoted - They start by attending some of our weekly training sessions - no pressure of scores, just learning the ropes.

It's not compulsory, but we find that it gives better long term results than going to a match with unrealistic expectations, probably DQ'ing and giving it all up.

Of course, if someone wants to just turn up at a match, he/she is free to do so, but if they do something silly under pressure, it's off to the dairy queen - which is a pity.

Edited by Cliveb
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3 hours ago, Cliveb said:

My suggestion is found in the line exactly following the one you quoted - They start by attending some of our weekly training sessions - no pressure of scores, just learning the ropes.

It's not compulsory, but we find that it gives better long term results than going to a match with unrealistic expectations, probably DQ'ing and giving it all up.

Of course, if someone wants to just turn up at a match, he/she is free to do so, but if they do something silly under pressure, it's off to the dairy queen - which is a pity.

 

I've seen more DQs from experienced guys pushing it than from shooters in the first few matches.

 

The majority of shooters who show up for their first match cold already know how to draw a pistol and do basic manipulations.  That's a function of our relaxed laws over firearm ownership and carrying for self defense.  Then the safety brief makes them slow down and think through their movement, 180, etc.  On top of that, ROs keep a good eye on them.  Net result most come in last, are slower, safe, and leave with a smile on their face. 

 

I will say that quite a few clubs do offer prep courses/clinics for those interested, so your idea isn't completely foreign here.  It's just not as widespread as the safety briefing the morning of.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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