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Gun non-compliant at club matches


nasty618

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8 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

Its good that you at least make an effort to point out the issue and offer a solution. If they ignore the recommendations then the solution is simple. Enforce the rules and let them deal with the consequences.

 

I also have ZERO tolerance for match staff or competitors that justify not following the rules by saying "Its just a level 1 match...". I call those people out directly and mandate that they follow the rules. There are zero valid excuses they can provide in a argument to not follow the rules. Especially when I give them alternative solutions that fit within the rules. If the match staff choose to continue to not follow the rules I vote with my feet and stop attending their match. I will also inform USPSA that said club is not adhering to USPSA rules and if they continue to do so their affiliation should be terminated. It all comes back to the fundamental requirement of "Do the job right, or don't do the job".

 

How about this situation? I recently took a class on shooting AR's. I was able to talk a couple of the instructors into coming out to a match and shooting PCC. But, all of them have PCC's with braces. Not legal in USPSA, but no advantage gained by using one. So would you tell them to piss off? Or invite them to come play anyway and hope they enjoy it enough to come back and maybe get proper gear? This is 3 guys who have never shot USPSA but do occasionally shoot IDPA at the same club.

 

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4 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

How about this situation? I recently took a class on shooting AR's. I was able to talk a couple of the instructors into coming out to a match and shooting PCC. But, all of them have PCC's with braces. Not legal in USPSA, but no advantage gained by using one. So would you tell them to piss off? Or invite them to come play anyway and hope they enjoy it enough to come back and maybe get proper gear? This is 3 guys who have never shot USPSA but do occasionally shoot IDPA at the same club.

 

Pistol brace is not USPSA or IDPA Legal, what are they shooting it for in 3 gun?

Some of the sloppiest unsafe gun handling and cavalier attitude about rules comes from 3 gunners.

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13 minutes ago, bret said:

Pistol brace is not USPSA or IDPA Legal, what are they shooting it for in 3 gun?

Some of the sloppiest unsafe gun handling and cavalier attitude about rules comes from 3 gunners.

 

Like most gun owners they don't shoot them in any competitions. When I told them there was a place they could they got a little excited. They have all shot IDPA with handguns in the past and a safe. Most of what they do is CCW training, and the required training to own handguns in our state. They just all happen to have PCC's because they are fun.

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1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Like most gun owners they don't shoot them in any competitions. When I told them there was a place they could they got a little excited. They have all shot IDPA with handguns in the past and a safe. Most of what they do is CCW training, and the required training to own handguns in our state. They just all happen to have PCC's because they are fun.

IDPA has NFC, Not for Competition, that allows people to shoot their non conforming guns in a match (Tier 1), maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to have that in USPSA too.

 

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4 minutes ago, bret said:

IDPA has NFC, Not for Competition, that allows people to shoot their non conforming guns in a match (Tier 1), maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to have that in USPSA too.

 

 

You can fit most guns somewhere in a uspsa division. I feel like they should just allow braces. But I get it, it's a division for rifles and the ATF says it's a pistol so we probably shouldn't say it's a rifle and allow it in our rifle division. I can see that not being a can of worms we should open. 

 

Our local IDPA MD says no PCC at all NFC or not. So they don't have that option either.

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Back to the original question - can you as an RO just pick a guy at random and try to enforce the weight rule? Appendix C2 specifies what is required for weighing of bullets and guns, so unless all the infrastructure is in place you cannot. Even if you bring your own scale and you believe it's obvious, you can't do it that way. Also, most of these rulings are deferred to the RM, not the RO at the stage. 

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41 minutes ago, HCH said:

And yet, somehow people manage to make through three gun matches without getting shot......

Space shuttle also managed to make it to the space and back many a time without blowing up... 

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15 minutes ago, IVC said:

Back to the original question - can you as an RO just pick a guy at random and try to enforce the weight rule? ...

 

IPSC background from Europe here:

  • Club match, no stakes: let them shoot unless they have something very obviously non-compliant. Somehow, let them know there's something they need to check for next time or bigger match.
  • Level II or higher, some glory on the line: gun check for safety and compliance at registration.
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1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

How about this situation? I recently took a class on shooting AR's. I was able to talk a couple of the instructors into coming out to a match and shooting PCC. But, all of them have PCC's with braces. Not legal in USPSA, but no advantage gained by using one. So would you tell them to piss off? Or invite them to come play anyway and hope they enjoy it enough to come back and maybe get proper gear? This is 3 guys who have never shot USPSA but do occasionally shoot IDPA at the same club.

 

 

How about you let them shoot your USPSA legal PCC?

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11 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

How about you let them shoot your USPSA legal PCC?

 

I would gladly let them, and If they come out I'll offer it to them. But, I know I would prefer to use my own gun if I could as opposed to someone else's. I can understand them feeling the same. 

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On 2/13/2020 at 1:56 PM, ClangClang said:


Tons of options on Amazon, just check their review ratings. Search "kitchen scale" for something a little smaller and more portable that will go up to around 5-10 lbs, but will probably have a high degree of resolution (.01 oz). Or you could search for a "postal scale" which will probably resolve to 0.1 oz, but have a range up to 50ish lbs. You'll be able to get either one for $10-$20. 

They're super useful to have around the house. I probably use my scales every single week between buying/selling/shipping packages, tweaking pistol parts, measuring portions for baking, etc.

Thanks!

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28 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I would gladly let them, and If they come out I'll offer it to them. But, I know I would prefer to use my own gun if I could as opposed to someone else's. I can understand them feeling the same. 

 

That is a cop out. You know what the rules are to make their guns legal. Tell them what to change on their guns to make them legal. Buying a buffer tube and stock to make their PCC's legal isn't going to break the bank. Running your Legal PCC can be a secondary option if they don't want to change their gun to make it legal.

 

Allowing them to knowingly use an illegal gun config when there are easy viable options to make their guns legal sets the wrong expectation. USPSA is a game that has rules and rules need to be followed for obvious reasons.

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2 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

That is a cop out. You know what the rules are to make their guns legal. Tell them what to change on their guns to make them legal. Buying a buffer tube and stock to make their PCC's legal isn't going to break the bank. Running your Legal PCC can be a secondary option if they don't want to change their gun to make it legal.

 

Allowing them to knowingly use an illegal gun config when there are easy viable options to make their guns legal sets the wrong expectation. USPSA is a game that has rules and rules need to be followed for obvious reasons.

 

I don't think it's a cop out. You'd turn them away from your club unless someone lets them borrow their gun all day and that is fine I can understand that. But, don't pretend they can just put a stock on their pistol. That comes with a $200 tax stamp, and I'm sure if they wanted to do that it would already be a SBR and not a pistol with a brace.

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1 hour ago, IVC said:

Back to the original question - can you as an RO just pick a guy at random and try to enforce the weight rule? Appendix C2 specifies what is required for weighing of bullets and guns, so unless all the infrastructure is in place you cannot. Even if you bring your own scale and you believe it's obvious, you can't do it that way. Also, most of these rulings are deferred to the RM, not the RO at the stage. 

If the RO thinks there is a problem with the gun, mags, or ammo, he can send them to chrono.

If no chrono and no scale, stated power factor and stated weight.

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13 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I don't think it's a cop out. You'd turn them away from your club unless someone lets them borrow their gun all day and that is fine I can understand that. But, don't pretend they can just put a stock on their pistol. That comes with a $200 tax stamp, and I'm sure if they wanted to do that it would already be a SBR and not a pistol with a brace.

If they want to shoot USPSA Matches, they need to have legal equipment.

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I like the do it right or don't do it at all saying. I had to step back from a local club because of this last April and have only started getting back to it slowly. It's hard because the range wants matches, but we don't have folks that are trained and certified much less read the rules cover to cover. 

 

IMHO we would be better off running an outlaw match because so many people's caviler attitude about the rules. Things were turning around, but it is hard because few people have any plans to shoot anything other than the local match. They just don't get the why's of rules.

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20 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I don't think it's a cop out. You'd turn them away from your club unless someone lets them borrow their gun all day and that is fine I can understand that. But, don't pretend they can just put a stock on their pistol. That comes with a $200 tax stamp, and I'm sure if they wanted to do that it would already be a SBR and not a pistol with a brace.

 

Ok, so its a "Pistol". Pistols are not even allowed in PCC so the issue is well beyond having a pistol brace and that being the only non-compliant item.

 

I think you are missing the point of a new shooter experiencing their first match. The are there to experience the match as defined by the rules. If they have non-compliant guns or gear, then offer up yours. Hell send an e-mail out to your local crew of USPSA shooters to see if they have legal PCC's to let them borrow. The vast majority of USPSA shooters have a safe full of legal guns and gear sitting around just waiting for people to use. That and they are more than willing to lend it out for new shooters to give their first match or two a try.

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Just now, CHA-LEE said:

 

Ok, so its a "Pistol". Pistols are not even allowed in PCC so the issue is well beyond having a pistol brace and that being the only non-compliant item.

 

 

 

Follow along Cha, the hole point of my post is there guns aren't compliant. It's not "beyond them having a brace" The brace is what makes them a pistol. Maybe you should google some of this. 

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18 minutes ago, ziebart said:

I like the do it right or don't do it at all saying. I had to step back from a local club because of this last April and have only started getting back to it slowly. It's hard because the range wants matches, but we don't have folks that are trained and certified much less read the rules cover to cover. 

 

IMHO we would be better off running an outlaw match because so many people's caviler attitude about the rules. Things were turning around, but it is hard because few people have any plans to shoot anything other than the local match. They just don't get the why's of rules.

 

There is nothing wrong with a local club hosting outlaw matches with whatever rules they want. I have seen several ranges do just that because they think that USPSA rules are too strict for their customer base. Outlaw matches are just that, Outlaw. You can't call an Outlaw match a USPSA match or even that USPSA rules will be somewhat enforced. If its marketed as a USPSA match then they need to follow USPSA rules and be hosted by a USPSA Affiliated club.

 

I am totally fine with attending Outlaw matches with rules that differ from USPSA rules. Ultimately it comes down to consistency in whatever rules are currently being enforced. I choose not to attend matches that have inconsistent rule enforcement regardless of them being Outlaw or USPSA matches.

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17 minutes ago, ziebart said:

I like the do it right or don't do it at all saying. I had to step back from a local club because of this last April and have only started getting back to it slowly. It's hard because the range wants matches, but we don't have folks that are trained and certified much less read the rules cover to cover. 

 

IMHO we would be better off running an outlaw match because so many people's caviler attitude about the rules. Things were turning around, but it is hard because few people have any plans to shoot anything other than the local match. They just don't get the why's of rules.

 

I agree, they should get the gear to follow the rules. One of the guys for example has a MPX, it would be a perfectly legal gun in USPSA but like I mentioned it has a brace which makes it a pistol so this one isn't legal. Functionally no real difference, but he would have to SBR it and has no interest in that. So the next option is he would have to buy a new gun. Not likely just to try a game he's never played before.

 

7 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

then offer up yours.

 

I mentioned above I would gladly let them use my gun.

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13 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Follow along Cha, the hole point of my post is there guns aren't compliant. It's not "beyond them having a brace" The brace is what makes them a pistol. Maybe you should google some of this. 

 

Not compliant = You don't get to use that gun/gear at a USPSA match. Pick another gun/gear option that is legal to participate with. They can buy or borrow legal gun/gear to use for their first match. If that requirement is too much trouble for someone to try USPSA then do we really need those unmotivated/lazy people to participate anyway?

 

I just don't see this as being a hard concept for new shooters to understand.

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5 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

Not compliant = You don't get to use that gun/gear at a USPSA match. Pick another gun/gear option that is legal to participate with. They can buy or borrow legal gun/gear to use for their first match. If that requirement is too much trouble for someone to try USPSA then do we really need those unmotivated/lazy people to participate anyway?

 

I just don't see this as being a hard concept for new shooters to understand.

This comes from kids never being told no, participation trophies for showing up and being coddled.

Why should these 2 shooters be expected to follow the rules at the match like everyone else?

Why can't they just do whatever they want since it's their first match?

Let's just make it an outlaw match to accommodate these 2 guys, who cares if everyone else has the right gear.

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41 minutes ago, ziebart said:

They just don't get the why's of rules.

 

Ive been a member for 15 years and a certified RO for 3, and I still don’t understand the why’s of half the rules. 

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