Gun non-compliant at club matches

[nasty618]

Scenario: at a club USPSA match you witness a newish shooter (maybe a couple of USPSA or SC matches in Production or Rimfire) shooting Carry Optics division with his new Shadow 2 that has a red dot mounted on a slide with a dovetail  plate. You can clearly see there is no slide milling, so you have a high degree of confidence that it would not make the weight.  He has shot at least one stage already.

 

Question 1: Would you, as a certified RO with the timer or tablet:

 

a. follow the rules

b. pretend like you didn't see it

c. explain the rules for the future and let him shoot for score 

 

Question 2:  same as above except you're not running a timer or doing scoring and choosing to just be a shooter at this match.

 

 

[RJH]

I might mention it, so they would know to check for future matches, but unless you got a scale, you really don't know.   

[konkapot]

I'd talk to him about it, probably. So often "this is my first match" people don't come back, so I might not.

 

Second or third match I'd probably talk to him like a rational human being about it.

[TrackCage]

17 minutes ago, RJH said:

I might mention it, so they would know to check for future matches, but unless you got a scale, you really don't know.   

Same. I know of a local shooter with a non-milled Shadow 2, leaving me scratching my head regarding weight. I don't carry a scale, so I opted to say nothing.

[George Jones]

A new shooter who has invested in a Shadow 2 is most likely coming back.

I would let him use my scale so he could determine his own fate.  

[CHA-LEE]

Bring a scale to the next match then ask them to weigh their gun in the safe area per the division rules. Most people that have gun or gear that is setup in a way that is outside of the division rules are not doing it intentionally. They simply don't know that their stuff isn't legit. As an MD myself I will let new shooters slide on their first match if their equipment isn't 100% compliant. I will usually force them to switch to a division which makes their stuff compliant during registration, such as moving a Carry Optics shooter into Open because their gun is too heavy or they have a magwell installed.

 

On the other side of the street, if I see a competitor that has an gun or gear that is outside of the Division requirements, and has been warned about non-compliance before, I will call them out directly and mandate that the appropriate rules are enforced. Those lessons can usually only be learned the hard way for stubborn competitors that think non-compliance isn't a big deal.

[ClangClang]

49 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Bring a scale to the next match then ask them to weigh their gun in the safe area per the division rules.

 

This method is the most conducive to welcoming new shooters into the fold. "Hey man, friendly heads up. Carry Optics has a 45 oz limit on a gun with your empty mag. Shadow 2's tend to be overweight from the factory without some customization. I've got a scale here which you can borrow in the safe area to double check." And then hand them the scale and walk away. Don't hover over their shoulder so you can yell "Gotcha!" If they're serious about USPSA, they'll go online, do some research, and fix it themselves.

[Darqusoull13]

Yeah, I'd judge how to respond by the level of shooter. Pops has no clue about the rules. I help him along and mark his division based on what he's shooting but he's there to have fun and doesn't care about finishing in the top half. Quite a few of the Tac Crowd are getting into CO as well which is another area we see questionable "CO" setups. 

If it's someone trying to game and we've discussed it before as a MD to a shooter in private, I'd be all for @CHA-LEE's call out style. Generally I prefer to avoid that as most shooters just don't know. Either way, the shooter needs to end up in the appropriate division. 

[RJH]

So, who actually carries a scale to matches?  Do you also carry a chrono and a grain scale incase you determine a persons gun looks too flat to be shooting declared PF?  

[Zincwarrior]

50 minutes ago, ClangClang said:

 

This method is the most conducive to welcoming new shooters into the fold. "Hey man, friendly heads up. Carry Optics has a 45 oz limit on a gun with your empty mag. Shadow 2's tend to be overweight from the factory without some customization. I've got a scale here which you can borrow in the safe area to double check." And then hand them the scale and walk away. Don't hover over their shoulder so you can yell "Gotcha!" If they're serious about USPSA, they'll go online, do some research, and fix it themselves.

Slightly OT, but what is a good cheap scale for that?

[ClangClang]

38 minutes ago, Zincwarrior said:

Slightly OT, but what is a good cheap scale for that?

Tons of options on Amazon, just check their review ratings. Search "kitchen scale" for something a little smaller and more portable that will go up to around 5-10 lbs, but will probably have a high degree of resolution (.01 oz). Or you could search for a "postal scale" which will probably resolve to 0.1 oz, but have a range up to 50ish lbs. You'll be able to get either one for $10-$20. 

They're super useful to have around the house. I probably use my scales every single week between buying/selling/shipping packages, tweaking pistol parts, measuring portions for baking, etc.

[bret]

Unless you follow Appendix C2 6-11, you go by declared weight.

 

Are you checking everyone's equipment or just calling out the one you think is illegal?

 

 

[waktasz]

I'd let them know they are likely to get nailed at a Level 2+ match should they shoot that gun, but I'm not really going to chase him around bothering him about it. I suppose if I saw him every week and it looked like he wasn't ever going to change it to be legal I'd have something else to say.

[MikeBurgess]

I'd let them know they are likely to get nailed at a Level 2+ match should they shoot that gun, but I'm not really going to chase him around bothering him about it. I suppose if I saw him every week and it looked like he wasn't ever going to change it to be legal I'd have something else to say.

This ^^

To me this is about the same as seeing shooters with the sig factory 320 20rd mags in CO, 90% of them are too long and people get popped for it at every L2+ match. But as has been said above 90+% have no idea they are illegal or even what legal would be.


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[jcc7x7]

Young man at our last monthly match.

Tied down tactical holster, small Comp on his MP and a magwell.

Asked RO ( I wasn't working the match) what division is he shooting.  RO answers CO.

My reply: Not with a magwell, comp and tied down holster (I,e, ? on tied down holster all together)

RO says it's just a local match!  I smile and say:  Call the MD over and at least let this guy know what the rules are.

RO doesn't do anything!

 

End of match.

I get this young guy, good kid, helped reset etc etc.

Explain where to find the rules for CO division.

He tilts his head!

I explain his gun is currently set up for open, and the holster only works if he's LE and wears all his duty gear etc etc (think that's still the rule )

HE says great I'll figure out what I need to do or just sign up for open until I figure out how to shoot this game !"

Tell him it was great shooting with him.  HE's been back to the clubs practice matches and signed up for IDPA this weekend.

That oughtta be fun to watch when he shows up there!!!  Though they're a good bunch of guys and will help him the same way.

 

Any how "softly softly catch the monkey" was an old saying I learned while living in Australia!

Seems like a soft approach worked and he is figuring it out. FWIW

Edited February 14, 2020 by jcc7x7

[ima45dv8]

Very nice story.

Sounds like he'll stick around, and he'll be in-bounds.

[Heliarclee]

I shot with a guy at my first ever USPSA match back in July that was shooting production loading his mags full with a Glock 19.   One guy on the squad said “thats not production having 15 rounds in the gun”, I didn’t say anything to him being as I was brand new.  Nobody else said anything to him either, and he was in the results in production.  I’ve seen him around at other matches, but I haven’t squaded with him since.  I wonder if anyone ever let him know.  

[waktasz]

lol wow. 

Now to me that is a lot different than a gun that MAY be an ounce over weight.  That guy would have to get moved to the correct division. Since he's new I wouldn't bump him to Open, I'd just have him moved to Lim minor

[shred]

IME Most of the time new shooters aren't trying to cheat, somebody just said 'bring what you have and go shoot' and at reg time nobody checked their gear or told them how many rounds to load.

 

Thus I think it's incumbent on experienced shooters to set people on the right path without being an ass about it.

 

 

[CHA-LEE]

Ok...... I have always wondered about this social interaction situation. I have lost count of how many times I have seen the following example at matches......

 

Example - An experienced competitor observes someone else doing something illegal or that their gun/gear is illegal. They point it out to their buddies during the match, they may also tell the RO or MD about it, but they DON'T tell the offender about it in an effort to help correct the situation. Not even a friendly "Hay buddy, I think your xyz might not be setup right. Lets take a look at the rules to confirm". These people instead expect someone else to fix the issue while they sit back and whine about it. As an RO & MD, every time I have a competitor "informs" me about another competitor having an issue my first response is "Did you talk to them and help them fix the issue?". This is almost always met with a bewildered look as they fully expected me to take care of the situation and they were not responsible for anything. Matches can't happen without a team volunteer effort from EVERYONE involved. If you see a fellow competitor doing something wrong or their gun/gear is out of compliance point it out to them and help them figure out a solution. EVERYONE will appreciate that type of teamwork. You never know, you might even make a new friend in the process.

[MHicks]

Our local club will bring a chrono to our monthly match before an upcoming big match. It gives shooters without a chrono a chance to check their ammo. They have also brought a scale on occasion. 

[bret]

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

If you see a fellow competitor doing something wrong or their gun/gear is out of compliance point it out to them and help them figure out a solution. EVERYONE will appreciate that type of teamwork. You never know, you might even make a new friend in the process.

I have pointed out equipment violations to people, a lot of the time they ignore it, argue, or even complain to the RM about it, a few are actually concerned and want to know how to make their gear legal.

Many times you hear, it is just a level 1, it doesn't matter.

[71Commander]

'C' Chances are that he wouldn't be competitive anyway.

[HCH]

2 hours ago, shred said:

IME Most of the time new shooters aren't trying to cheat, somebody just said 'bring what you have and go shoot' and at reg time nobody checked their gear or told them how many rounds to load.

 

Thus I think it's incumbent on experienced shooters to set people on the right path without being an ass about it.

 

 

 

Yep. I’ve seen people show up with an XDS sign up in SS. I’ve seen Glock 40s in CO. I’ve seen the fully loaded M&P mags and the ported Glocks in production. 

 

Rarely have I ever talked to a new shooter that said, “I read all of Appendix D before my first match and based my declared division on what it said.”

 

So they get sent to the division that fits their gear best and they’re more well informed of the equipment rules. 

[CHA-LEE]

4 minutes ago, bret said:

I have pointed out equipment violations to people, a lot of the time they ignore it, argue, or even complain to the RM about it, a few are actually concerned and want to know how to make their gear legal.

Many times you hear, it is just a level 1, it doesn't matter.

 

Its good that you at least make an effort to point out the issue and offer a solution. If they ignore the recommendations then the solution is simple. Enforce the rules and let them deal with the consequences.

 

I also have ZERO tolerance for match staff or competitors that justify not following the rules by saying "Its just a level 1 match...". I call those people out directly and mandate that they follow the rules. There are zero valid excuses they can provide in a argument to not follow the rules. Especially when I give them alternative solutions that fit within the rules. If the match staff choose to continue to not follow the rules I vote with my feet and stop attending their match. I will also inform USPSA that said club is not adhering to USPSA rules and if they continue to do so their affiliation should be terminated. It all comes back to the fundamental requirement of "Do the job right, or don't do the job".