Phineas7 Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 I have a CZ Shadow 2 and I shot my first Steel Challenge last Saturday and the RO said I had to start with hammer down in DA mode (seems safe and reasonable), but that I also had to engage the safety (seems severely redundant). I didn't want to be "that guy", so I went along, but wanted to get a confirmation on that requirement. The Steel Challenge rule book doesn't cover it, and it is my understanding that SC fall under USPSA so I "assumed" that if not specific to SC, then USPSA rules apply. (is that correct?) In looking thru the USPSA section 8.1.2.2 Firearm "Ready Conditions / Self-loading firearms / Double action" all it says "chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked". The RO insisted, that I must activate every safety the firearm is capable of activating. If your pistol doesn't allow the safety to be activated while the hammer is down, then fine, but if it does, it must be activated. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 In USPSA RO would be an idiot. I would think in SC as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnStewart Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 Yeah, agreed - I think the RO was mistaken. The safety is not required when the hammer is down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 No, safety does not have to be on, when the hammer is down. A5.3 Production: Any double action or safe action pistol on the USPSA Production gun list.Holsters must follow USPSA Handgun Rules for the Production Division except as specifically noted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phineas7 Posted February 12, 2020 Author Share Posted February 12, 2020 OK, thanks for the replies. I don't want to offend the guy. He was very nice, friendly and helpful to me all day. The S2 came with two safety lever, one with a ledge and the other smooth. I'm using the smooth once since I did not expect to need it. I was going to change it out, if he had been correct. It's kind of hard to get traction on. But, I will leave it "as is" and address it tactfully if/when I see him again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 The RO was entirely wrong. You have a choice, you can shoot in limited division, cocked and locked, or in production, hammer down, safety off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
124gr9mm Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 1 hour ago, motosapiens said: The RO was entirely wrong. You have a choice, you can shoot in limited division, cocked and locked, or in production, hammer down, safety off. This was my understanding as well. We had a local/practice match last weekend and I wasn't sure, so I asked the RO what to do when he said load and make ready. He answered exactly as above and didn't blink when I was hammer down, safety off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hey.moe Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure attempting to apply the safety on a Shadow or Shadow 2 with the hammer decocked can damage the gun. At least, all mine resist it, so I'm not about to use force on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, hey.moe said: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure attempting to apply the safety on a Shadow or Shadow 2 with the hammer decocked can damage the gun. At least, all mine resist it, so I'm not about to use force on them. No, it can be applied with the hammer down and even fired, hammer down safety on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 1 minute ago, bret said: No, it can be applied with the hammer down and even fired, hammer down safety on. Not on every one. It's a weird phenomenon. Mine will not go on with the hammer down (Shadow 1), yet s friends will easily go on. Yet I have 2 old Springfield P9's (CZ clones), one will go on, the other won't...the one that will, you can pull through the safety and have it raise the hammer. I asked CZ about this same issue, and what they said was, some will, some won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hey.moe Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said: Not on every one. It's a weird phenomenon. Mine will not go on with the hammer down (Shadow 1), yet s friends will easily go on. Yet I have 2 old Springfield P9's (CZ clones), one will go on, the other won't...the one that will, you can pull through the safety and have it raise the hammer. I asked CZ about this same issue, and what they said was, some will, some won't. Okay, now that IS weird, but good to know. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 11 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said: Not on every one. It's a weird phenomenon. Mine will not go on with the hammer down (Shadow 1), yet s friends will easily go on. Yet I have 2 old Springfield P9's (CZ clones), one will go on, the other won't...the one that will, you can pull through the safety and have it raise the hammer. I asked CZ about this same issue, and what they said was, some will, some won't. both of my shadow 2s and my accushadows will do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 On 2/12/2020 at 11:07 AM, Phineas7 said: I don't want to offend the guy. He was very nice, friendly and helpful to me all day. I don't want to offend anyone either but I will firmly decline and refuse to follow directions that I know to be contrary to the rules no matter who is asking/directing me to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 9 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said: I don't want to offend anyone either but I will firmly decline and refuse to follow directions that I know to be contrary to the rules no matter who is asking/directing me to do it. I agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hey.moe Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) On 2/12/2020 at 9:38 AM, Phineas7 said: The Steel Challenge rule book doesn't cover it, and it is my understanding that SC fall under USPSA so I "assumed" that if not specific to SC, then USPSA rules apply. (is that correct?) In looking thru the USPSA section 8.1.2.2 Firearm "Ready Conditions / Self-loading firearms / Double action" all it says "chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked". The RO insisted, that I must activate every safety the firearm is capable of activating. If your pistol doesn't allow the safety to be activated while the hammer is down, then fine, but if it does, it must be activated. Thanks! Going back to what started this whole discussion, I think I found what the RO was thinking. Take a look at para. 8.1.1.9 (under 8.1.1 Safety Violations - DQ) in the Steel Challenge Rule Book: "Holstering a loaded handgun without the external safety applied or on a revolver, with the hammer cocked." It's not in the USPSA rules, just SC, and I doubt it was intended that way, but ... Edited February 18, 2020 by hey.moe typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, hey.moe said: Going back to what started this whole discussion, I think I found what the RO was thinking. Take a look at para. 8.1.1.9 (under 8.1.1 Safety Violations - DQ) in the Steel Challenge Rule Book: "Holstering a loaded handgun without the external safety applied or on a revolver, with the hammer cocked." It's not in the USPSA rules, just SC, and I doubt it was intended that way, but ... the OP said the Hammer was down but was told the safety had to be on too, which is incorrect. The Hammer was not cocked. SCSA Follows USPSA Production rules on start condition, for Production Guns, same with carry Optics, hammer Down, safety doesn't have to be on, with hammer down. Edited February 18, 2020 by bret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hey.moe Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 bret, I'm not advocating for having the safety on with the hammer down. Just saying where the RO may have gotten the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 14 minutes ago, hey.moe said: bret, I'm not advocating for having the safety on with the hammer down. Just saying where the RO may have gotten the idea. RO needs to know the rules, it isn't hard to learn them. But at the swamp challenge I had an RO (The CRO) ask me why I was lowering the Hammer on my Shadow 2 in Carry Optics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean_ht Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 You can simply ask to call the range-master. Some RO are a bit rusty in memorizing rules for different divisions. I witness the exact same situation in a steel-challenge match two weeks ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 At a match with "CROs" of that skill level, I'm not sure the RM would be all that much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 9 hours ago, bret said: both of my shadow 2s and my accushadows will do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean_ht Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 OK, this is what I would do. At the time of shooting, I won't argue with the RO/CRO and do what he said and finish the stage. Then depending on the attitude of the RO, I either pull up the guidebook/rules in my cell phone and show it to the RO, or call the RM and describe the situation. I then will ask to re-shoot the stage. Enjoy your shooting and the sport. In the end, not everyone are perfect, and ROs are like everyone else. It could be just an honest mistake on his side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 While a relative beginner might want to "go along" and do what the RO said, most of us might recognize that we don't actually have to do that. The "must engage thumb safety when the hammer is down" situation is one of these. I've shot Production for years and still compete in Prod L1 and L2 matches, and I own two CZ Shadows, both of which don't do well if I try to engage the safety with the hammer down. The gun simply isn't made for that. And it's unnecessary. And it's not in the rule book. And I'm not accustomed to shooting DA while disengaging the safety. So it's both potentially damaging to the gun and placing an unnecessary restriction on my shooting. (Well, not just me, all of the CZ shooters.) So I'm not going to engage the safety. I'll stop and try to discuss with the RO, then the CRO (if there is one), and finally the RM, if needed, in accordance with the usual procedures for a match. I also won't start in Production (or CO) with the hammer back and safety on if told to by an RO, because that's simply wrong and I"m not used to it and it puts me at a disadvantage, so the same conversation needs to happen. BTW, I've never had either of these happen to me personally, but it could. Far more common is wrong commands (just ignore them, unless they're totally unclear), the incessant repetition of "are you ready" when I'm standing with my hand on the gun, fast beeping, or insisting that I must respond to "Are You Ready"; these tend to come from newish ROs. Hopefully they mature with time and feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Quote ...or insisting that I must respond to "Are You Ready"... {growl} I was at a L2 match a few years ago when an RO asked, "Are you ready?" I was in the proper start position and place so I did and said nothing; just stared at the first target I intended to shoot. After a pause he said, "WELL. . .ARE YOU??!?!" (He was rather annoyed with me.) I said I wasn't required to respond and to please continue. He blew that off and said I did have to respond. The CRO wasn't there at the moment so someone suggested calling the RM. He said we didn't need the RM, all that was needed was for me to learn the rules. When other shooters started laughing at him he got a look that was both pissed off and puzzled. Then one of those shooters pointed at me and told him, "He IS the Range Master!" It was a special moment. I think he's still mad at me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 The confusion is likely coming from either 8.1.2.1 or 8.1.2.4 - a striker-fired pistol with an external safety must have it applied if it's available and SA guns during unloaded start must have it applied if possible with the hammer down. The RO was clearly incorrect in trying to apply those rules to the incorrect gun and standard loaded start... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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