Steel Challenge - shooting back to back?

[jdavid1]

Are there any rules against shooting two different divisions back to back? I went to one club this weekend and they would not let a shooter shoot back to back. Went to a different club the next day and they are considering requiring it to speed up the match. I looked in the rule book and didn't see anything. 

[joseywales]

Here's what I see...

 

5.6 Firearm Shooting Sequence
Steel Challenge is unique in that competitors compete in multiple matches simultaneously.
5.6.1 Competitors are permitted to shoot multiple firearms as they compete during the event.
5.6.2 Any specific shooting sequence for competitors shooting multiple firearms will be determined by the match director and each competitor will be made aware of these requirements in advance of starting the match.
5.6.3 At tier 2 and 3 matches competitors are prohibited from shooting back-to-back. At least one other competitor must shoot the course of fire between the first and any subsequent attempts by the original competitor.

[BJB]

8 minutes ago, jdavid1 said:

Are there any rules against shooting two different divisions back to back?

Yes.  In Level 2 or above you are not permitted to shoot back-to-back. 

In Level 1, or local, this is not required but it is recommended.

[conditionone]

No back to back at my club or any other club in my area. In my opinion it slows things down.

 

As a shooter I prefer to not shoot two divisions back to back.

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by conditionone

[zzt]

In my area we have a lot of two gun shooters.  The procedure is always the same.  We run through the complete squad once, then start over for the second gun shooters.  That is absolutely the fastest way to do it.

[Umbrarian]

My club does back to back. Fastest way to do it, you are already up there and ready to go.

[AzShooter]

We can only shoot separately.  I like it better.  A lot of guys in the club shoot two guns and it slows thing down when they have to set-up their second gun while on the line.  It's been better at our club to have then clear and leave the line, help with the board or timer and clean up brass before shooting again.  No one has complained about this approach.

 

The club use to make a shooter shoot the entire match and then go back and start again with their second gun.  I'm glad they changed.

[motosapiens]

17 hours ago, Umbrarian said:

My club does back to back. Fastest way to do it, you are already up there and ready to go.

 

we don't have a rule per se, but everyone who shoots 2 guns does it back to back at our local matches because it is clearly faster. You don't have to wait for the in between shooter to clear off, and you don't have to spread your equipment out again. When I do it, as soon as I holster my SS gun my hand is on the bag of my 22 waiting for the RO to say make ready. 15-20 seconds later I'm shooting.

[zzt]

Back to back may work for some clubs, but it drastically slows down squads at the clubs I shoot at .  Very often on a ten gun squad there are only five shooters.  Shooter one shoots both guns, then goes to reload two sets of mags.  Shooter two shoots both and does the same.  The on-deck shooter is now up and the timing ans scoring ROs are down range painting.  Two of the clubs I shoot at forbid it, so it isn't an option.  The other clubs don't get anywhere near the number of two gun shooters.

 

I don't actually see how it could save any time.  Shooter one shoots one gun, puts it away, picks up his brass and goes to reload mags.  He has cleared the table and the on-deck shooter has his stuff on the table waiting for the Make Ready when the range is clear.  So I fail to see how even a second of time is saved.  Even if you shot back-to-back you still have to wait for the painters to clear the range.

 

Rules say you have to paint between shooters, so I don't see how moto gets away with that.  The second gun is essentially a new shooter, so you have to paint in between.

Edited February 12, 2020 by zzt

[Umbrarian]

47 minutes ago, zzt said:

Back to back may work for some clubs, but it drastically slows down squads at the clubs I shoot at .  Very often on a ten gun squad there are only five shooters.  Shooter one shoots both guns, then goes to reload two sets of mags.  Shooter two shoots both and does the same.  The on-deck shooter is now up and the timing ans scoring ROs are down range painting.  Two of the clubs I shoot at forbid it, so it isn't an option.  The other clubs don't get anywhere near the number of two gun shooters.

 

I don't actually see how it could save any time.  Shooter one shoots one gun, puts it away, picks up his brass and goes to reload mags.  He has cleared the table and the on-deck shooter has his stuff on the table waiting for the Make Ready when the range is clear.  So I fail to see how even a second of time is saved.  Even if you shot back-to-back you still have to wait for the painters to clear the range.

 

Rules say you have to paint between shooters, so I don't see how moto gets away with that.  The second gun is essentially a new shooter, so you have to paint in between.

 

Yes back to back only works if the shooter has his mags loaded. If not, then it is not faster. 99% of back to back where I am is different guns/mags, so they are always ready. We are lost brass matches, so that time consuming step is out too.

[Nolan]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

Back to back may work for some clubs, but it drastically slows down squads at the clubs I shoot at .  Very often on a ten gun squad there are only five shooters.  Shooter one shoots both guns, then goes to reload two sets of mags.  Shooter two shoots both and does the same.  The on-deck shooter is now up and the timing ans scoring ROs are down range painting.  Two of the clubs I shoot at forbid it, so it isn't an option.  The other clubs don't get anywhere near the number of two gun shooters.

 

I don't actually see how it could save any time.  Shooter one shoots one gun, puts it away, picks up his brass and goes to reload mags.  He has cleared the table and the on-deck shooter has his stuff on the table waiting for the Make Ready when the range is clear.  So I fail to see how even a second of time is saved.  Even if you shot back-to-back you still have to wait for the painters to clear the range.

 

Rules say you have to paint between shooters, so I don't see how moto gets away with that.  The second gun is essentially a new shooter, so you have to paint in between.

 

Most of the local clubs in Northern Calunicornia let anyone who is shooting 2 guns shoot back to back.  Most 2 gun shooters don't insist on painting between guns, so generally that really speeds up the match. 

 

When it's 105 in the shade, I'm happy to finish early.

 

As far as loading mags, my wife and I both shoot, generally two guns.  Rimfire Pistol and Rifle for her and most of the time same for me, but I sometimes I'll shoot Centerfire Pistol and PCC, so then it's a scramble for me to keep mags loaded because my wife hates loading 10/22 mags and doesn't have the hand strength to load the Centerfire Pistol or PCC mags, so my thumb gets a lot of exercise.

 

Nolan

[Gregg K]

3 hours ago, Nolan said:

 

Most of the local clubs in Northern Calunicornia let anyone who is shooting 2 guns shoot back to back.  Most 2 gun shooters don't insist on painting between guns, so generally that really speeds up the match. 

 

When it's 105 in the shade, I'm happy to finish early.

 

As far as loading mags, my wife and I both shoot, generally two guns.  Rimfire Pistol and Rifle for her and most of the time same for me, but I sometimes I'll shoot Centerfire Pistol and PCC, so then it's a scramble for me to keep mags loaded because my wife hates loading 10/22 mags and doesn't have the hand strength to load the Centerfire Pistol or PCC mags, so my thumb gets a lot of exercise.

 

Nolan

You need to buy that girl and yourself a LULA.

Most clubs around here have the 2 gun guys shoot back to back and like you no paint in between. If they are shooting a .22 and a centerfire most shoot the .22 first to be able to see the hits without painting on the centerfire. There is one club I have been to that insists on no back to back and it absolutely slows things down.

[zzt]

Well, the problem I see with no painting in between is counting hits when both guns are 22s with no painting in between.  If you don't hear a bullet hit and don't see the hit because it landed in a previous splatter, it may become contentious.   That being said, I'm going to ask one of the MDs to try back-to-back for at least one match.  We shoot all Winter, so getting out of 30 degree windy weather sooner would be a plus.

[motosapiens]

18 hours ago, zzt said:

Rules say you have to paint between shooters, so I don't see how moto gets away with that.  The second gun is essentially a new shooter, so you have to paint in between.

 

You make good points, but it's not my circus and not my monkeys. we only pay $3 to shoot 4 stages after work and everyone is in a hurry. I would be happy to pay $4-5 and paint between shooters. I suspect that as the local club gets more organized compliance with that particular rule will improve.

 

I personally paint before my back-to-back runs because otherwise my wife will screw me over on a hit at least once a match because she can't hear it through her earpro. I think if we paint properly between backtoback guns, the time savings would be lost, but I still can't imagine how it could be faster to not shoot back to back. It's the exact same amount of making ready, shooting, and ULSC, and also the exact same amount of reloading and painting.

[zzt]

36 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

wife will screw me over on a hit at least once a match because she can't hear it through her earpro.

 

One way to cure that is to shoot Eley Force.  42gr @ 1250 fps make a ding loud enough to be heard even if double plugged.

 

BTW, I had forgotten the rule had been changed. 

5.5 Plate Painting
All plates are to be painted white (other colors OK for snowy weather) for the eight official Steel Challenge stages and will be repainted prior to each competitor’s first run on each course of fire..............  So you do not have to paint before the second run.

Edited February 13, 2020 by zzt

[AR_James]

4 hours ago, zzt said:

5.5 Plate Painting
All plates are to be painted white (other colors OK for snowy weather) for the eight official Steel Challenge stages and will be repainted prior to each competitor’s first run on each course of fire..............  So you do not have to paint before the second run.

 

The second run would be a new course of fire; so per the rules, you would still need to paint before the second run.  With that being said, none of the three "local" official Steel Challenge matches I have available to me repaint between each course of fire.  Hell, I went to one match where they didn't even paint between squads.   And, they usually leave it up to the squad on the shooting order for folks with two guns.  

[Nolan]

19 hours ago, Gregg K said:

You need to buy that girl and yourself a LULA.

Most clubs around here have the 2 gun guys shoot back to back and like you no paint in between. If they are shooting a .22 and a centerfire most shoot the .22 first to be able to see the hits without painting on the centerfire. There is one club I have been to that insists on no back to back and it absolutely slows things down.

 

She loads her Buckmark mags with a McFadden Ultimate Clip loader.  We have the MagLula for the 10/22 magazines, but it isn't really much better than just loading them by hand.  The Unloader on the other hand works great.

 

Nolan

[nso123]

We only do this occasionally at our tier one matches. I prefer to not shoot back to back.  I know that some of the fastest guys out there don't like to shoot back to back either. 

[Sigarmsp226]

We only allow it if the shooter is changing from a pistol to a rifle or vice versa. We do mot allow shooters to go back to back if they are shooting the same style weapon (we also do not allow PCC and any rifle division to shoot back to back)....As Match Director and RO I have witnessed several shooters string times consistently go down before we stopped this process... Makes it more fair for everyone....

[AzShooter]

I think that letting a shooter shoot back to back gives them an unfair advantage.  They get a practice run and then get to do it for real with their other gun.  

[nso123]

57 minutes ago, AzShooter said:

I think that letting a shooter shoot back to back gives them an unfair advantage.  They get a practice run and then get to do it for real with their other gun.  

This is along my line of thinking too, particularly if you are shooting two similar rifles like RFRO and PCCO back to back. 

[xpierrat]

I have even seen the same gun used.... SS and LTD and shot back to back at a local.... and yes usually the 2nd gun was faster.... but they are just kidding themselves if it gives them personal best peak times that they can not replicate at larger matches with no back to back.

 

[motosapiens]

I'm not convinced that shooting back-to-back is an advantage. I still do it at local matches for convenience, but I bet I would get faster times if i took a few minutes between and went to the safe area to do some dryfire with the other gun and get properly prepared.

 

fwiw, I have experimented with which order I shoot in (rfpi and limited), and it doesn't seem to make a significant difference which one I do first.

Edited February 18, 2020 by motosapiens

[ezra650]

Back to back seems faster and if you aren't repainting between guns it surely is. ZZT makes a good point though about 5-6 man squads. It can get a little bit frantic, but that also depends on who you shoot with. Our usual squad is laid back but we all work, and we often finish the match before 1 or 2 of the other squads. I'm glad that you don't shoot back to back at lvl 2 and higher. I can think of a few times where poor runs with my first gun put me out mentally on the 2nd. Having a little break to "reset" would be more beneficial for your scores IMO. 

 

I also experimented with shooting order ( RFPO and LTD). I couldn't feel a preference either way. 22 first makes scoring easier with the fresh paint so that's what I do.