dwkfym Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 Hi guys, I've been out of the scene for a while. Shot my last comp (IDPA) in 2013 or so, shot well enough to win sharpshooter class and kinda hung up the hat for a bit. I went shooting with a few friends recently and noticed a bunch of dudes cant their guns. Especially single handed shooting. I asked them about it and I guess E. Langdon teaches that. I always did a classic vertical grip. What is the rationale on this? I get the biomechanics part, but does it really trump predictable recoil, drive to next target, better/more accurate sight picture? Obviously it works for Langdon, could work for many others. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 It seems to work for me in single handed shooting. I dont cant much, though. When using only one hand, the biomechanics help with the recoil. It is still predictable but not the same as straight up. With a slight cant, sight picture is still easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstone45 Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 I cant slightly when shooting right-hand-only because it feels more natural. I cant more when shooting left-hand-only in order to help bring the sights in front of my dominant right eye. However, if I'm shooting bullseye or other precision, I don't cant at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lroy Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 I think it kind of naturally happens if you dont intentionally keep it vertical. I don't imagine there's really any mechanical advantage to it, but if there is I'd love to hear it. I just don't like the idea of changing how the gun behaves (diagonal recoil) for my one handed vs two handed shooting so I try to keep them as similar as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balmo Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 It's easier (more relaxed) on the forearm and wrist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 I don't cant it at all no matter which hand or hands I have on it. I found I have better trigger control and much faster recoil recovery in SHO and WHO with the pistol as vertical as possible. To get my dominant (right) eye aligned with the sights (dot) )in WHO, I turn my head sideways slightly to the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 There are two schools of thought - those who cant and those who don't. The pros for canting is that the arm and wrist are in their natural positions, allowing for better recoil control. The con is that the recoil is diagonal so it changes the follow up shots when shooting fast, which might or might not be a concern based on how fast your follow ups are and how much you've practiced. The pros for keeping it vertical is that it matches your two handed grip and that the recoil supposedly goes straight up, which is not really the case because it requires a support hand for the recoil to go up, so you still end up with off-center recoil. The con is that it's not the ergonomic position when you're using just one hand. To compare the two, consider that the bullseye shooters use straight gun, but they also rotate body completely and don't care about the recoil. Action shooters tend to experiment and figure out which way gives them better control for transitions and follow up shots. Remember though that even if you keep it straight up, the recoil will push sideways because you don't have your support hand to direct it straight upwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, IVC said: The con is that it's not the ergonomic position when you're using just one hand. When I extend my arm my wrist doesn't rotate inwards. It stays vertical. How is canting the gun "ergonomic"? Edited February 12, 2020 by SGT_Schultz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstone45 Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 5 hours ago, IVC said: To compare the two, consider that the bullseye shooters use straight gun, but they also rotate body completely and don't care about the recoil. I assume because tilting a gun affects the point of impact, bullseye shooters will use a straight gun because that is what their gun is sighted for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 9 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said: When I extend my arm my wrist doesn't rotate inwards. It stays vertical. How is canting the gun "ergonomic"? Perhaps our physiques are different. If I extend or punch my hand forward, without trying to angle it a certain way, it doesn't end up in a vertical position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 21 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said: When I extend my arm my wrist doesn't rotate inwards. It stays vertical. How is canting the gun "ergonomic"? The standard shooting position is with elbows slightly rotated to the outside, which cants the hands and creates canceling torque on the gun when shooting two-handed. This cancelling torque comes from the shoulders and is what keeps the gun in straight up-down position during recoil. If your hand stays vertical, your elbows must be pointed straight down - this is what bullseye shooters do, but they rotate the body to make it ergonomic. If you try it in front of your body while facing the target is't not the stable position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) On 2/13/2020 at 2:17 PM, IVC said: The standard shooting position is with elbows slightly rotated to the outside, which cants the hands and creates canceling torque on the gun when shooting two-handed. This cancelling torque comes from the shoulders and is what keeps the gun in straight up-down position during recoil. If your hand stays vertical, your elbows must be pointed straight down - this is what bullseye shooters do, but they rotate the body to make it ergonomic. If you try it in front of your body while facing the target is't not the stable position. There's more than one way to do this. The way you describe is one way, not the way. Edited February 16, 2020 by SGT_Schultz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 4 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said: There's more than one way to do this. The way you describe is one way, not the way. Agreed, but it would be more useful if you described the technique you had on your mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valerko Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 I actually noticed that if I keep my hand straight instead of canting , it locks the wrist more and I can manage recoil better and drive the gun to next target better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viperpilot Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Last USPSA match I attended, another squad member stated for WHO, he cants for <10yds, and doesn't for >10yds. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 It could be for the same reason you time a compensator on a rifle, for a right-handed shooter at 1 o clock it's offset the twist of the rifling. If it's good enough for Jerry Miculek good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
war_material Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 I would say shoot a string canted and a string vertical and see which one you like better. I did an experiment one day at the range and found that I like to cant it, but when I tried vertical it was the same. I just think it is more comfortable canted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 1 hour ago, war_material said: I would say shoot a string canted and a string vertical and see which one you like better. I did an experiment one day at the range and found that I like to cant it, but when I tried vertical it was the same. I just think it is more comfortable canted. You're probably right, as long as you have good sight alignment and sight picture, and the trigger squeeze is good, shouldn't be a problem. Just my opinion I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XDoctor Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 I took a tactical class one time from a guy who has been in more wars than the US over the last 50 years, and he taught a thumbs up grip style. The ideas was that you could rotate the left hand back, and the right hand forward to get a kind of twist lock on the gun. It's very much not in fashion, but it can work for some people. For strong hand shooting, he advocated sticking your thumb up, canting the gun toward it, and using your thumb as an something to push the gun into. I shot thumbs-up for many years, and had great success with it. I recently went back to a more traditional grip, but I still stick my thumb up for strong hand and weak hand shooting, as it gives me better control and accuracy. Try it out. Maybe it's just what you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janskis Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 On 2/12/2020 at 11:27 PM, SGT_Schultz said: When I extend my arm my wrist doesn't rotate inwards. It stays vertical. How is canting the gun "ergonomic"? If you punch do you punch with your fist vertical? Personally I cant a lot, not 45 degrees but like 60 degrees from horizontal or something. Its more relaxed and the recoil is more predictable for me. If I keep my wrist vertical the recoil is all over the place. Sure, canted might recoil a bit more but it is a lot more predictable for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggulp Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 Completely relax your arms and hands at your sides. Now slowly raise your dominate arm so it's pointing straight ahead. Chances are pretty close to 100% that your hand is not vertical. In theory, keeping that natural alignment/slight cant when shooting one handed will allow for better recoil control. In practice, the gun still moves, just in a different direction. Would likely take a LOT of rounds down range to re-train and realize any gains from the change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limitedgun Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 I don't like to call it cant because of the negative connotation. I think we should call it tilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 Since these are games, I've always wondered why people don't shoot one handed, just like they do two handed, just with their hands not touching. That would seem to be the "most natural" since most people do most of their shooting two handed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limitedgun Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 On 6/6/2020 at 10:15 AM, cas said: Since these are games, I've always wondered why people don't shoot one handed, just like they do two handed, just with their hands not touching. That would seem to be the "most natural" since most people do most of their shooting two handed. Why don't you give that a try on your next strong hand/weak hand classifier and report back to us how it works. You could give us a strngths and opportunities list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 On 6/6/2020 at 6:15 PM, cas said: Since these are games, I've always wondered why people don't shoot one handed, just like they do two handed, just with their hands not touching. That would seem to be the "most natural" since most people do most of their shooting two handed. To ensure they don't do what they "always" do? That is: actually put the other hand on the pistol too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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