Handling Loaded Magazines

[Buzzmeister]

I was getting ready to run a shooter at our club match a few weeks ago; he stepped into a start box and I noticed he had a loaded magazine in his hand. I politely asked him not to have it out until we start doing the LAMR dance. He pointed out that there are no rules against loaded magazine handling outside of the safety area. Besides, you have to be able to load them somewhere, don't you? I found nothing in the rule book other than addressing what can occur in the safety area. How do other RO's feel about this, or, is there something in the rules that would apply to this situation that I'm missing here.

[mactiger]

There is absolutely no rule or prohibition on handling loaded magazines anywhere on the range, other than in the safe area, and really no problem with a competitor walking around or standing with one in his hand.

This is a non-issue in my book.

Troy

Edited October 4, 2005 by mactiger

[CRubio]

Buzz,

The shooter is correct, there are no rules against a competitor having a loaded magazine in hand when he/she walks up to the line, or anywhere else on the range for that matter except the at a safe area or, based on the new rulebook, while doing a stage walkthru.

Carlos

[mactiger]

Actually, Carlos, the rule states that the competitor can't use sighting aids, not that the competitor's hands must be empty. You can walk around with something in your hand, you just can't use it as a sighting aid.

So, loaded magazines are good to go anywhere on the range, with the exception of the safe area.

Troy

[Loves2Shoot]

Troy is dead on (of course.)

It is just easier to fully load your mag pouches and grab the mag you will start with and carry it to the line with you. Much easier than shuffling mags around, especially if you are shooting L10 or Prod, because it is easier to keep track of the one with 11 rounds.

[johnhurd]

Actually, Carlos, the rule states that the competitor can't use sighting aids, not that the competitor's hands must be empty.  You can walk around with something in your hand, you just can't use it as a sighting aid.

Troy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This one puts me in the Grrrrrrrrr Zone what kind of girly boys are making these rules?

[BritinUSA]

For information:

The rule about sighting aids came about due to the following reasons:

1. People were walking around stages with airsoft guns.

2. People were mounting a fibre-optic front-sight on a metal rod and inserting it into a magazine to simulate a gun.

If you were an RO down range patching targets and saw a competitor with either of the above pointed at you, you would need some new underwear.

Rather that start listing what you could or could not use during a walk-through it was easier to lump them all under the 'sighting aid' umbrella and put a stop to the whole practice.

A smart move in my opinion.

Not looking to start an argument - just giving some background.

[johnhurd]

Nope I am not going to be sucked in

[Carlos]

I usually hold onto a loaded barney mag in my weak hand when I step into the box just to politely let the RO know I am ready to go.

[mactiger]

Actually, Carlos, the rule states that the competitor can't use sighting aids, not that the competitor's hands must be empty.  You can walk around with something in your hand, you just can't use it as a sighting aid.

Troy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This one puts me in the Grrrrrrrrr Zone what kind of girly boys are making these rules?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wasn't my idea.

Troy

[reneet]

Troy is dead on (of course.)

It is just easier to fully load your mag pouches and grab the mag you will start with and carry it to the line with you. Much easier than shuffling mags around, especially if you are shooting L10 or Prod, because it is easier to keep track of the one with 11 rounds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<Thread Drift on>

There can be none with 11 rounds as we discovered at the nationals a couple of years ago by having a competitor bumped from L-10 to Open for having 11 rounds in a magazine.

<Thread Drift Off>

[Jim Norman]

I have to agree with John on this. We are evidently continuing the slide into the LCD or Lowest Common Denominator syndrome. One or two idiots pull out an Airsoft or a training replica to walk-thru a stage and now If I inadvertently hold up a magazine which I am reloading during the walk-thru I get a single proceedural Rule 8.7.4. and evidently according to the rules 10.5.1 COULD be applied since we are as I indicate below discussing a "Firearm" or at the least a replica.

Wouldn't it have been better to take the couple of idiots aside and after giving them a through verbal thrashing and a Match DQ (I equate the Dummy Gun on a COF to Dummy Ammo in a Safety Area) the problem would go away. If we needed a rule, maybe this would have covered it, IE, a replica of a firearm or any item containing a sighting system or configured to simulate a firearm and/or sighting system may not be used during a walk-through. Use of such an item will be treated as if it were handling a firearm without direct supervision of an RO outside of a safety area. In other words a Match DQ.

Jim Norman

[johnhurd]

I suppose that as assinine as this rule seems, if you pick your nose and forget a booger on the end of your finger that will \ can be determined a sighting aid if you point down range. Please do not try and observe the texture or color of said booger because that is sweeping!!!!! I think you can tell from this how silly I think it is................

[ChuckS]

<Thread Drift on>

There can be none with 11 rounds as we discovered at the nationals a couple of years ago by having a competitor bumped from L-10 to Open for having 11 rounds in a magazine.

<Thread Drift Off>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<reDrift>

Renee,

That used to be true but not any more. The current rule book states in answering the question about mag capacity for L-10 and production:

"Yes, 10 rounds loaded maximum in any magazine after the start signal".

Let's face it, bumping a shooter to open for using a >10 round barney mag was just plain punative and the RO who did it needs to< I can not think of a polite thing to say here!>.

</reDrift>

[reneet]

Thanks - need to read a new rule book.

Thread Hijack over

[johnhurd]

Let's face it, bumping a shooter to open for using a >10 round barney mag was just plain punative and the RO who did it needs to

Yup

[randyb]

If we needed a rule, maybe this would have covered it, IE, a replica of a firearm or any item containing a sighting system or configured to simulate a firearm and/or sighting system may not be used during a walk-through. Use of such an item will be treated as if it were handling a firearm without direct supervision of an RO outside of a safety area. In other words a Match DQ.

You b&m about a procedural for holding a mag in your hand as a sighting aid but then you want to dq a guy for holding an ASP red gun as a sigthing aid?

[IPSCDRL]

Let's face it, bumping a shooter to open for using a >10 round barney mag was just plain punative and the RO who did it needs to< I can not think of a polite thing to say here!>.

Chuck, the RO in this situation operating under the previous USPSA rule book has/had no discretion. It was the rule and was correctly followed. We have all since agreed that it was not the best course of action so we modified the rule book.

Please don't blame the RO for a poor rule.

this reminds me of a major match I once worked, where a fairly inexperienced shooter stepped fully over a fault line and engaged several targets with a distinct advantage. After scoring the stage, I politely explained the situation to the shooter away from the other shooters. Two members of the squad approached me and asked, "Do you feel right about giving that shooter all those procedural penalties?" to which I replied. "Hell No! But my feelings have nothing to do with it. Do you think I have any other choice within the rules?" How could I justify giving anyone penalties if I let this one slide? Consistency and adherence to the rules are what make a good RO.

Maybe this should be split off to its own thread?

[Jim Norman]

If we needed a rule, maybe this would have covered it, IE, a replica of a firearm or any item containing a sighting system or configured to simulate a firearm and/or sighting system may not be used during a walk-through. Use of such an item will be treated as if it were handling a firearm without direct supervision of an RO outside of a safety area. In other words a Match DQ.

You b&m about a procedural for holding a mag in your hand as a sighting aid but then you want to dq a guy for holding an ASP red gun as a sigthing aid?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No Randy, I didn't B&M about holding a Mag in your hand. It is a far cry different to hold a magazine as opposed to a gun, whether or not the gun is real is not the question, it is the perception of the gun's realness that is addressed. A red training aid gun with a C-more mounted would not be sometihing I want to see pointed at me when I am down range. I have seen too many competition guns with fancy finishes to simply assume that a red or blue or anyother color gun is either real or fake.

As to adding a sight to a stick, I think that in reality a simple walk-through rehersal is sufficient. I am upset that if I happen to be loading my mags as I walk-through, that I could get a proceedural because I held my mag up for a second and the RO Assumed I was sighting over it.

I do understand the why of why some people pushed for the extreme rule we now have. I don't agree with them. I think that it could have been worded better and in fact should be simple, If it looks like a gun, OR has a sighting system installed on it, OR is a prop designed to facilitate a walk-through, you just earned a DQ. Carry your magazine, fine, no probelm. Anything else? No. Not even the stapler you are carrying to the RO to refasten a target. It looks too chrome plated, just like a lot of guns, so that at a distance, you could make the error and ruin your shorts.

Jim Norman.

[folsoml]

I can understand a dummy gun--I get nerved up enough just turning around when pasting targets and seeing someone holding empty hands in a shooting position--but what are we preventing by not allowing people to hold magazines during a walk through? I got warned once, and all I was doing was trying to make sure I had enough mags for the mag changes I was going to have to do.

And what would people really get out of having sights on a stick anyway?

[ErikW]

johnhurd and Jim Norman, you've done enough complaining about the sighting aid rule in at least one other thread...

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23723

The question has been answered (by a RangeMaster, no less) so it's time to thwart the attempted hijacking of this thread.