Is SSR competitive with ESR?

[IHAVEGAS]

I like soft shooting guns but have never tried using a speed loader, seems like it would be a bit slower than moon clips and more finicky. So I am on the fence about which IDPA revolver division to get into. 

 

Do the big kids have a definite performance based preference for either revolver class? 

[eggman]

I switch back and forth between shooting speedloaders and moonclips. I have somewhat better scores shooting my S&W 66-5 and speedloaders vs my 625 and moonclips . For me shooting 38 special minor my splits are faster and reloads a little slower . Shooting 45 ACP major with moonclips my splits are slower with a faster reload . This time of year when our ranges are muddy or snow covered I like having to pick up my brass in moonclips vs singularly . So in winter I'm shooting the 625 or my 610 however I usually always shoot bigger matches using speedloaders and 38 special as I feel I'm more accurate and have fewer pulled shots. 

[IHAVEGAS]

Great information.

Thank you. 

[Racinready300ex]

Back when I shot revolver I was faster in ESR then SSR for sure. Split time has little effect on your score. Reloads with moon clips are faster and more consistent over the course of a match. More so if you're shooting a 10+ stage major.

[Warrior75]

I have been shooting ssr this year at our by monthly club match. I have shot esr in the past. Just like Eggman stated. Less recoil and slower reloads in ssr. Slower splits and faster reloads esr. Biggest thing with idpa revolver in my opinion is clean shots with no extra shots for a third reload.

[SGT_Schultz]

On 2/6/2020 at 3:16 PM, Racinready300ex said:

Back when I shot revolver I was faster in ESR then SSR for sure. Split time has little effect on your score. Reloads with moon clips are faster and more consistent over the course of a match. More so if you're shooting a 10+ stage major.

 

Agree with this, faster reloads > faster splits.  Doubly so when faster splits likely mean dropped points.

 

Dropped points + slower reloads = death.

[BHBret]

I’m really tempted to get a new Python and see how it compares to my 625JM. All else fails, it would be a good excuse to get a Python.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FWSixgunner]

Interesting thread.

 

I’m contemplating the switch to moons from my M-66.

 

My problem with the 625 is size matters to my stubby fingers, plus the weight.

 

I swapped for a GP100 MC 10mm a couple years back and it’s likely to get the nod once I find a suitable load and shoot enough to get used to the trigger. And chamfer the chamber mouths.

 

S&W could solve this by brining back the 646. That’d be the IDPA to version the 986.

 

One advantage of the 625 I don’t see mentioned is the bigger bullet turning a one-down to a zero-down.

 

Then the other downside is weight. It’ll slow down your draw.

[IHAVEGAS]

7 minutes ago, FWSixgunner said:

I swapped for a GP100 MC 10mm a couple years back and it’s likely to get the nod once I find a suitable load and shoot enough to get used to the trigger. And chamfer the chamber mouths.

 

I think I bought one Saturday.

 

Do you have a holster recommendation? 

[FWSixgunner]

 
I think I bought one Saturday.
 
Do you have a holster recommendation? 

You think you bought one???

I run a Garrett Industries holster, I think they call it Silent Thunder OWB.

[IHAVEGAS]

2 hours ago, FWSixgunner said:

You think you bought one???

 

Internet purchase. Haven't heard the fat lady sing. 

[Jim Watson]

On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2020 at 1:16 PM, FWSixgunner said:

S&W could solve this by brining back the 646. That’d be the IDPA to version the 986.

 

The 646 is pretty light what with its titanium cylinder.  It was good for original SSR at Minor power factor, but when they split SSR and ESR, .40 Major turned out to be a kicker. 

A steel cylinder and current SSR-E  power factor 155 ought to be OK. 

[Gregg K]

I was always faster shooting SSR. With loaders setup right the reloads are the same if you practice. There are plenty of opportunities for reloading on the move that remove any perceived advantaged of a moon clip. SSR is a lot easier to shoot faster with better accuracy and with the penalties for dropped points it's easy for the SSR to come out on top. Dedicate yourself to learning how to reload with properly setup loaders and the SSR will win. Model 66 gets my vote

[IHAVEGAS]

10 hours ago, Gregg K said:

I was always faster shooting SSR. With loaders setup right the reloads are the same if you practice. There are plenty of opportunities for reloading on the move that remove any perceived advantaged of a moon clip. SSR is a lot easier to shoot faster with better accuracy and with the penalties for dropped points it's easy for the SSR to come out on top. Dedicate yourself to learning how to reload with properly setup loaders and the SSR will win. Model 66 gets my vote

 

Good info.

 

Will be shooting a 929 in USPSA and a  GP100 in IDPA if things go as planned so I went with moon clips.

 

But I like the idea of having an excuse to buy a GP100 in 357   . I think a soft shooting 6 might make steel challenge interesting again. 

[MikeBurgess]

105 PF 38 specials with 160 grain bullets feel like cheating when you shoot them, but unless you grip is horrible the difference in splits between 2 good shots of 110 pf and 160 pf is going to be in the low hundredths so you would need way more than 3 splits to make up for even a half second longer reload 

 

think of it like this (made up number alert)

110pf 38 splits .25 reload 3.5 

160pf 45 splits .30 reload 3

 

So for ever reload you have 3 splits at .05 faster for a .15 advantage but it costs you .5 in the reload so your behind .35 every 6 shots 

 

I would be willing to bet that all the numbers I used above are conservative in favor of the 38, I know my speed loader reloads are more than .5 slower and my splits are nearly the same on everything but point blank hoser targets and even those are less than .05 different.

 

[ajblack]

I'm going through the process of moving from SSR to ESR.  While the ~110 pf 38 ammo "feels" like it splits faster, the timer says otherwise.  In drills from 5-25 yards I'm only seeing .05-.07 difference in splits between the ~110 pf out of a 686 and ~160 pf out of a 625.  And I'm just starting to work with the 625 so I expect that gap to close up.

[Gregg K]

Don't sell the lighter gun short. In my head I decided that I would run the 686 faster than the 66. The timer said otherwise. Shooting the old 90 round classifier I was a consistent 5 seconds quicker with the 66. I had a talk with Jerry M about the difference and he was convinced it was the difference in weight and the faster transitions. I figured his opinion was worth a lot plus the timer agreed! Both the 66 and 686 out ran the 625. If you are doing 3 to 3.5 reloads there is an area to work on right there. You should be able to knock a second of both of those. Pay close attention to the rules and figure out how to make reloads on the move, even in IDPA there are a lot of opportunities.

[Racinready300ex]

 

 

16 hours ago, Gregg K said:

 If you are doing 3 to 3.5 reloads there is an area to work on right there. You should be able to knock a second of both of those. Pay close attention to the rules and figure out how to make reloads on the move, even in IDPA there are a lot of opportunities.

 

If you knock a second off of both of those numbers your still in exactly the same place. 

[Gregg K]

4 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

 

If you knock a second off of both of those numbers your still in exactly the same place. 

With practice you can load just as fast with a speed loader but even if you don't get that practiced you can eliminate any difference by what I called a free reload where you are reloading on the move. If you do that then it doesn't matter if you aren't as fast reloading with a speed loader. I didn't earn DM status in revolver by guessing at what is faster, I have run everything on a timer and I know what is faster. I got tired of IDPA and don't play it any more but I do know how to play it. Learning how to be faster with a speed loader gun takes a lot of training and dedication. Moon clips are the lazy way out.

[ajblack]

12 hours ago, Gregg K said:

I didn't earn DM status in revolver by guessing at what is faster, I have run everything on a timer and I know what is faster.

Was your DM win in the combined revolver division, or in SSR or ESR?  I'd be really interested to hear from someone who shoots well at the national level with speedloaders. I've never been to Nationals so I don't know the answer, but I would think that most guys there would be running moonclips for the adding consistency. 

[jhgtyre]

I've got a 625 that I shoot USPSA major 45ACP loads in (because I'm lazy and don't want to make different loads for IDPA), as well as a 686 and a Model 19 both of which I use with speed loaders.  I love shooting the moonclipped 625 because, as Gregg K pointed out:
 

13 hours ago, Gregg K said:

Moon clips are the lazy way out.

and I don't mind being lazy since I'm just in this to have a good time shooting with friends. 

 

Even so those lighter guns, the 686 and Model 19, are both fun to shoot and they do seem to transition better.  The quicker transitions really become apparent when my wife shoots.  She loves the Model 19 (there are rumors that she thinks it's HER gun... whatever...) over the 686 just because it is lighter.  Apparently at 105 power factor the extra weight of the 686 isn't helping her.

 

Even so a bad moonclip reload is still not so bad when compared to a bad speedloader reload.  Sure you can spew live rounds all over the place but the worst is an ejected case getting hung up under the star.  I've seen that happen to several shooters and it's a real time killer.

[Gregg K]

1 hour ago, ajblack said:

Was your DM win in the combined revolver division, or in SSR or ESR?  I'd be really interested to hear from someone who shoots well at the national level with speedloaders. I've never been to Nationals so I don't know the answer, but I would think that most guys there would be running moonclips for the adding consistency. 

That was at the last competition where the divisions were still split, I was shooting ESR at the time. I was shooting a lot of USPSA at the time so ESR made since. After they combined Revo all wins and top finishers were using using SSR guns. I don't know what's been going on Nationally the past few years since I have been fighting nerve issues in my right arm that have prevented me from being able to pull a revolver trigger. With the relatively low participation in revolver a guy could come along and win using an ESR gun but it would be a tough fight if anyone shows up that can run an SSR gun. SSR at 105 is so silly it's like shooting airsoft.

[Gregg K]

25 minutes ago, jhgtyre said:

I've got a 625 that I shoot USPSA major 45ACP loads in (because I'm lazy and don't want to make different loads for IDPA), as well as a 686 and a Model 19 both of which I use with speed loaders.  I love shooting the moonclipped 625 because, as Gregg K pointed out:
 

and I don't mind being lazy since I'm just in this to have a good time shooting with friends. 

 

Even so those lighter guns, the 686 and Model 19, are both fun to shoot and they do seem to transition better.  The quicker transitions really become apparent when my wife shoots.  She loves the Model 19 (there are rumors that she thinks it's HER gun... whatever...) over the 686 just because it is lighter.  Apparently at 105 power factor the extra weight of the 686 isn't helping her.

 

Even so a bad moonclip reload is still not so bad when compared to a bad speedloader reload.  Sure you can spew live rounds all over the place but the worst is an ejected case getting hung up under the star.  I've seen that happen to several shooters and it's a real time killer.

Some of the test I ran looking to find the fastest gun to shoot I ran a full lug 686 against my 66 and on the 90 round classifier the 66 was usually 10 seconds faster than the full lug 686. When they came out with the 686 SSR gun with the reduced lug the 686 faired much better but was still averaging 3-5 seconds slower than the 66 but it was much better which points to weight being a factor. Like you pointed out you really don't need any weight to manage 105 PF.

 

It is easy to make a mess out of things in SSR on the reloads if you don't stay 100% focused. When I would switch between ESR and SSR I would find myself messing up the SSR if I had been shooting ESR for a bit. I determined that my moon clipped guns let me get lazy on the reloads. It is nice to have people pick up all your brass and hand it to you in moon clips provided they don't stomp the clip in the ground. To stay consistent and focused I had to stay away from the moon clipped guns if I was going to be shooting SSR. If you keep an angled pair of needle nose pliers in your silly vest pocket you will never get a round under the extractor

 

I have an old video somewhere of me shooting a stage at the Nationals with my SSR gun and of another shooter that was an accomplished Revo shooter using a 625. The difference in the shot cadence between the 2 guns was pretty dramatic.

 

I miss shooting my revolvers. I may be able to get back to them but I don't see me ever returning to IDPA.

[Racinready300ex]

The reality is most likely  the OP is only going to be shooting against one or two guys anyway and the best shooters will be running a bottom feeder so shoot what ever looks fun. At the end of the day the better shooter will likely win. 

[Gregg K]

26 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

The reality is most likely  the OP is only going to be shooting against one or two guys anyway and the best shooters will be running a bottom feeder so shoot what ever looks fun. At the end of the day the better shooter will likely win. 

This is part of what made revolver fun, beat the autoloaders with a round gun.