Shoot on the move. What maximum distance is practical?

[vgdvc]

I hope I'm putting this in the right forum as I wanted to target Open division. So this question is primarily for M & GM shooters. I realize there would be several variables to consider in each individual situation so I'll give a constant. For an open target and a partial half target,with  good footing to work on, what is the maximum distance not practical to consider shooting on the move for each? Looking for a training parameter to stay within while working on my M card. Thanks in advance

[CHA-LEE]

The best answer for this is going to be shown in major match videos of the top shooters. Get to work on researching the footage to see what you find.

[Whoops!]

33 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

The best answer for this is going to be shown in major match videos of the top shooters. Get to work on researching the footage to see what you find.

Exactly.  

[echotango]

I'm with cha-lee.

It is very stage dependent. If the stage allows it AND it is beneficial, then as much as possible. It is good to know your ability. 

I shoot on the move during practice and have learned my limits. 

Edited January 30, 2020 by echotango

[vgdvc]

41 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

The best answer for this is going to be shown in major match videos of the top shooters. Get to work on researching the footage to see what you find.

I hear you. I've been studying the heck out of everything I can find on YouTube. Problem is it's hard to tell the distance buy just watching footage. It is interesting as I'm taking notes the differences and similarities between guys like Max, JJ,Grauffel,Jarrett etc. and the new prodigy Christian Sailer with movement and technique. Was just hoping to get some firsthand opinions from better shooters on the forum.

[shred]

A lot depends on the shooter's style (assuming Open Major).  Grauffel shoots on the move more than Max. 

[Joe4d]

I would think relative movement plays a big part as well, Going straight towards or backing from a target, you have little relative motion, If you are traveling sideways along a target array,,, Like parallel to how they are facing your relative motion will change based on your speed,

[Hi-Power Jack]

15 hours ago, echotango said:

 

I shoot on the move  during practice  and have  learned my limits. 

 

This sounds like a very good solution to the opportunity ….     

[MikeBurgess]

At a class with JJ we worked on movement from 10-20 yards moving front to back and diagonal and 15yd side to side. 

the big take away from class was move when you can and shoot only when the sights say you can. 

 

[CHA-LEE]

The bitter pill to swallow here is that there isn't a magical number when it comes to distance of targets to shoot on the move. This distance is going to be unique to each person based on their skill level and shooting style. It doesn't matter if Joe Blow pro shooter can engage targets on the move at whatever distance. What DOES matter is what distance YOU can do it. Once you know what that distance is for you, then you can work towards increasing that distance.

[TONY BARONE]

Well said.

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

The bitter pill to swallow here is that there isn't a magical number when it comes to distance of targets to shoot on the move. This distance is going to be unique to each person based on their skill level and shooting style. It doesn't matter if Joe Blow pro shooter can engage targets on the move at whatever distance. What DOES matter is what distance YOU can do it. Once you know what that distance is for you, then you can work towards increasing that distance.

 

[FTP_Shooting_Sports]

It's all risk and reward. Given the difficulty of the shot, will your time savings likely contribute to a higher hit factor given the chance you will likely drop some points. Obviously major and minor scoring come into play as well. As stated, you need to learn your limits and then figure out what works for you.

[ARK]

It changes with your experience and skill level. When I started playing the game I would look for spots where I could run to and take as many shots as I could to finish the stage. Later I started challenging  myself to shot on the move frequently with counterproductive results. Shooting on the move is more fun but always more risky.  

[FTP_Shooting_Sports]

You REALLY need to understand hit factor scoring and the match and your abilities to decide if it's worth it for you.

[usmc1974]

On 1/30/2020 at 4:36 PM, vgdvc said:

I hope I'm putting this in the right forum as I wanted to target Open division. So this question is primarily for M & GM shooters. I realize there would be several variables to consider in each individual situation so I'll give a constant. For an open target and a partial half target,with  good footing to work on, what is the maximum distance not practical to consider shooting on the move for each? Looking for a training parameter to stay within while working on my M card. Thanks in advance

I think the best way to answer this question. Is to practice hard and at what distance can you move say 3 miles an hour, and still get good hits on the target. I don't think anybody can answer this question for you, but you. This is just the way I, practice.  it's my humble opinion I could be wrong.

[vgdvc]

Yes makes sense and I appreciate all that have responded. I do realize this will be dependent on an individual's proficiency.  Based on the criteria in the OP I was looking to see what most top shooter's recognized as a "not worthwhile to shoot at on the move" distance on a general basis. I'm realizing now that even with a baseline there are obviously too many variables to give a general guideline.

[highhope]

Practice shooting on move in dry fire with a dot is very helpful...just put targets on the wall, and shoot it on the move, pay attention to the dot, realize when the dot is stable 

[a matt]

Start at about 5yrds and work out to where your accuracy starts to suffer. Then improve the skill.  Shooting on the move at distances your comfortable with, that’s something that’s will be a little different for each shooter. Try to always keep some kind of movement,  headed to your last position. 

[ClangClang]

Shooting on the move is fun and a very useful skill, whether in competition or "real world" (which is not really part of the discussion here on Enos).

But from a USPSA/IPSC perspective, which you clearly have, this question can really only be answered properly by the scientific method and a LOT of ammo, because even if you can shoot on the move, all that matters at the end of the day is your hit factors. This is really a question about stage planning.

 

The idea of testing this out is interesting, but remember that there are so many variables, that to devise a test methodology which actually yields data from which you can draw meaningful conclusions is a massive exercise in the scientific method (I nerd out about this stuff).

1. Put in the work and determine the distance where you can generally hit Alphas on an open target with a high degree of reliability (say 75%) while moving towards the target
2. Repeat Step 1 to assess movement away from the target
3. Repeat Step 1 again for lateral movement. I suspect L-R vs R-L is probably the same for most shooters.
4. Devise 3 drills with uprange/downrange positions that can be shot either on the move or from 2 isolated positions with rapid movement in between. Devise another 3 similar drills with lateral movement.
   1. Remember that you have to design these drills/CoFs carefully (regarding target distance and exposure, primarily) so that you can draw meaningful data from attempting them. If the CoF unfairly favors one style of shooting vs another, your results will be inherently skewed.
5. Establish a baseline. Shoot each uprange/downrange drill 5 times shooting from fixed positions and hustling in between. Make sure to give it your full match-level effort. Record hit factors. - (15 total runs)
6. Shoot each lateral drill 5 times while shooting on the move at your max "comfortable" movement pace. (15 total runs).
7. Now compare hit factors. My own prediction: the results will be fairly close - certainly close enough that you won't be able to draw a statistically significant conclusion because you don't have enough data points. 
   1. Remember, if you're mostly hitting Alphas but then have a run with a shanked Delta, it will be enough to throw off your HF and render that run "useless" from a testing perspective. Or, you need to collect a much larger dataset which has a group of perfect accuracy runs (all A's), another group with 75% A's, and yet another group with 50% A's. And you have to calculate the hit factors on all of them.
8. Repeat the entire process 3 more times to get a more reliable set of data. So that's another 90 runs timed/recorded/pasted, or another 270 runs if you are gathering groups of runs within various accuracy brackets.
9. Now draw more meaningful conclusions about each specific scenario: "At target distance X, with Y feet of forward/reverse/left/right movement, I know that I will typically see higher HFs as long as my accuracy remains in the Z bracket."
10. Weep with sorrow when you realize that your conclusions can technically only be applied to open targets at the general distance you shot them, with a movement distance roughly equal to the drills you designed. If you encounter a stage with significantly longer movement than you tested, your assumptions may or may not remain the same.
11. Weep with further sorrow when you think about how time influences HF and realize that the entire testing protocol above didn't actually control for time (it would be impossible), so all of your data is basically meaningless.
12. Smile when you realize all that work has helped you level up, get your M card, and become the undisputed movement king in your entire Area.

Long story short, waaaaay too many variables to test. Run some drills, get a feel for the scenarios where shooting on the move probably makes sense, and then roll with that at matches. Compare your stage plan and HFs against other shooters of similar skill level and see what shakes out.

I should probably get back to work

 

[Robertcsd]

ClangClang,

 

I really like the training outline you provided. I have tried similar methods when training with my friend who is a GM. I noticed I could not duplicate any of his skills when moving - I was just slower while trying for A's. Also, he could not point out what the difference was between us. He just said - "you need to practice more." So, later that night I studied the videos we took and noticed he was very smooth when moving. While braking down the movements, I noticed he was better aligned to the target. During dry fire practice, if I matched my hips and shoulders alignment while moving I could be smooth, faster. I took that idea to live fire practicing and noticed I was faster and accurate during my runs. It's a lot more foot work but it works for me. I am C shooter in USPSA so I need to work on things really hard to get them in my head.

 

I was always told to stay square to the target and I just thought it was to keep my upper body or my shoulders aligned with the target, but now I am rethinking this. Square to the target means hips and shoulders square to the target or just shoulders? 

 

Thanks Robert

 

 

 

[a matt]

It would be tuff to have your hips and shoulder aligned with each other and a target while  moving trough a stage. You would be stepping your feet with each step and that’s an extra (rather large) variable plus the movement would be way to slow if one foot is stepping over the other. Keep you hips aligned with the direction of travel and square your shoulders to the target you are engaging. Bend you knees (get low) roll your steps keeping one foot in contact with the ground at all times. Start slow so your hits are good and then work on the speed and increased distances. Or start inside with a 3/4 full cup of water. That’ll tell you if you’re moving smooth enough to hit anything consistently. YMMV and good luck 

[a matt]

It’s one thing to shoot on the move and it’s an entirely different thing to shoot on the move and make it advantageous.  You have got to be moving, at least faster than you can walk and getting acceptable hits to really take full advantage.  Sometimes I see Shooters moving so slow that maybe they should just post up, shoot what they need to and  haul it to the next array rinse and repeat. Slow baby steps through the whole stage and shooting it not what we want to do. Run a stage both ways post-up and on the move, then see which technique equates to the highest hit factor and do that until you make shooting on the move a strength. Now if you do post-up then use those baby or slower steps to keep moving. A little movement is better than none.  We are just trying to reach the last target of the stage plan just as fast as we can with the best hit we can make.   Again YMMV and good luck.  I hope all this makes some since.  I had to stop and think about how I  move instead of just moving. 

Edited March 12, 2020 by a matt

[ClangClang]

Just to further drive home the post I made above:

 

This is a screenshot from Ben Stoeger's instagram. It shows the effect on hit factors (i.e. how you win or lose matches) based on the balance of time vs accuracy (i.e. points) in your stage.  It shows the same results for Major vs Minor.  It's also why trying to devise a method for selecting when to shoot on the move vs shoot from static positions between movement is almost impossible. It's just too hard to make assumptions about the time it would take to move X distance while maintaining Y% accuracy.