Reaching Master or Grand-master level with factory ammo

[Sean_ht]

1 minute ago, waktasz said:

In a 9mm division no, not necessary to reload. Factory 40 sucks, but still not absolutely necessary, although you couldn't pay me to do it. 

 

2000 rounds a week? Maybe some guys but none that I know. 

 

If I decide to shoot reload ammo, it will be definitely my own reloads.  Other than factory ammo, I don't trust anyone's reload. You know better than me, reloading is a supper boring process, but a minor mistake can lead to a catastrophic consequence.  

 

The saving of reload vs factory for any caliber above 9mm, including 9-major, is substantial. 40 is a bit tricky, the brass and bullet are not cheap.

[waktasz]

Maybe I wasn't clear. You couldn't pay me to shoot factory 40 ammo. It's nasty.

Edited January 28, 2020 by waktasz

[Sean_ht]

14 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Maybe I wasn't clear. You couldn't pay me to shoot factory 40 ammo. It's nasty.

Now I get it.

I hate 40, and I rarely shoot my limited gun. Guess what, it is a 40cal pistol!

[Brooke]

Yes you need to reload 40

[Racinready300ex]

8 hours ago, waktasz said:

Maybe I wasn't clear. You couldn't pay me to shoot factory 40 ammo. It's nasty.

 

The syntech isn't bad if your gun will run it. 

[nasty618]

10 hours ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

Every Master and Grand Master shooter I know reloads. They were not rich to begin with so they looked to save money while getting to those Categories. Those shooters are laying out 1,500 - 2,000 rounds per week to get to that level

 

I am sure they do, but one does not need to do that.  One can reach that level with far less rounds per week and no reloading at all, which was the OP's question.

[Ssanders224]

23 hours ago, Sean_ht said:

 

As for the Precision Deltas Match, their price is as high as a good quality factory ammo. Also, I learned a long time ago, if I shoot a re-manufacture ammo, it will be what I reload by myself. I can't trust the QA/AC of any of those re-manufacture companies. I have seen several instances of stovepipe or brass deformation with re-manufacture ammo (not particularly the mentioned company). 

 

This is a very uninformed statement. 

It might surprise you that quality re-manufactured ammo, from a long standing and reputable company, can be VERY high quality and consistent ammo. Many times more so than what you are calling "factory" ammo. It can also have the benefit of being purpose built with competitors in mind (PF, recoil characteristics, etc.). 

 

Put another way.... Take Precision Delta's 147gr. re-manufactured ammo for instance. If you chose to reload yourself, your cases most likely won't be inspected, processed, sized, or proofed to the same level, you'd pay a premium to load a similar quality 147gr Jacketed projectile, every charge you throw wouldn't be checked, and your finished ammo would most likely not be gauged/inspected with any more scrutiny.  That's not to say that you can't load great ammo at home. I do. But I also shoot re-manufactured ammo at pretty much every match I attend (I'm a GM if it matters). 

 

All that being said... You aren't wrong that there are companies out there producing less than satisfactory re-manufactured ammo, and you aren't wrong to steer clear of them. 

 

 

[Ssanders224]

Double post. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Ssanders224

[Ssanders224]

10 hours ago, waktasz said:

Maybe I wasn't clear. You couldn't pay me to shoot factory 40 ammo. It's nasty.

 

Many standard length factory .40 loads do suffer from being dirty. Slower powders and avoiding high pressures lends itself to extra gunk. 

 

However, that's not the case with PD .40 Long (if running 2011s). 

[Ssanders224]

11 hours ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 

Every Master and Grand Master shooter I know reloads.

 

 

Off the top of my head, I think everyone on the Limited SS at nationals was shooting factory ammo. 

[jc3257]

So Sean_ht 's original question is weather he needed to shoot hand loaded ammo to make GM. Personally the ammo has a very small impact on the ability to manipulate the gun to make GM.

The discussion has gone towards the cost. If he wants to shoot lower power factor loads in 9mm or 40 but does not want to invest the time and money into reloading, I think the best option is a reputable manufacturer of competition specific ammo (regardless of cost). Precision Delta, NCShooters, Outdoor Dynamics...etc. all offer both practice and match ammo that would keep the PF around 130 for 9mm and 170 for 40 (depending on the gun) and do it for about the same cost of Federal or some other standard factory ammo. Plus the PF on regular factory ammo is going to be more in the 135-145 for 9mm and 175-185 for 40 range depending on the company and product.

 

I personally shoot my on hand loads for practice and local matches but shoot Precision Delta for major matches. PD has never failed me in a match. I can't say that much for my hand loads! lol

 

[B_RAD]

I’m thinking of shooting factory or remanufactured for majors. 
 

 

@Ssanders224 correct me if I’m wrong but I think Precision Delta will ship their ammo to the match. It’s certified/official match ammo so there’s no way to get bumped to sub minor. 
 

When you consider the cost of shipping ammo and/or checking it when you fly, it’s not only very cost effective but less hassle. 
 

stack some of those hundred round plastic cases on top of each other and find out how much of a hassle that could end up being. If you’re lucky, TSA will X-ray it before you board your flight. If not, they’ll pull you off the plane for you to open your bag and then, you’ll be catching the next flight. 
 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by B_RAD

[Malarky112]

Even the Syntech ammo that I run in matches hits 145 PF out of a G34. Where are you guys finding factory ammo that does 130-135PF? 
 

I reload and it’s for $ savings (although not that much saving in 9 minor) but also I really like the softer recoil with my own ammo. 
 

I’ll be honest though, reloading is a pain in the butt. I’m not one of those guys who enjoys it, to me it’s a chore. Everyone likes to talk about how many rounds per hour they can knock out. 
They don’t talk about collecting brass on the range, cleaning it, sorting it (by headstamp if you want consistency). They don’t talk about filling primer tubes or case gauging and inspecting every round. Adjusting your machine for different loads. Of course not everyone does all of those things but it’s all a part of reloading and it all takes time. 
 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Malarky112

[MemphisMechanic]

A good friend of mine took 6th overall in Production at Nationals with a Shadow 2. He’s won a big match or two shooting factory 115gr ammo this year, although I think his brother loaded some 147s for Nats.

 

Ben Stoeger does somewhat okay with factory ammo, as well. (AKA he wins a whole stinking lot.)

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[Racinready300ex]

9 minutes ago, Malarky112 said:

Even the Syntech ammo that I run in matches hits 145 PF out of a G34. Where are you guys finding factory ammo that does 130-135PF? 
 

I reload and it’s for $ savings (although not that much saving in 9 minor) but also I really like the softer recoil with my own ammo. 
 

I’ll be honest though, reloading is a pain in the butt. I’m not one of those guys who enjoys it, to me it’s a chore. Everyone likes to talk about how many rounds per hour they can knock out. 
They don’t talk about collecting brass on the range, cleaning it, sorting it (by headstamp if you want consistency). They don’t talk about filling primer tubes or case gauging and inspecting every round. Adjusting your machine for different loads. Of course not everyone does all of those things but it’s all a part of reloading and it all takes time. 
 

 

 

I think it's a chore too. Some things I do to save time. 

 

-Unless I really need brass I don't pick it up at matches, I just pick it up in practice (most shooting is in practice)

-I only case gauge ammo for matches, not for practice

-I don't sort by head stamp

-I clean in a cement mixer, so I can do it by the bucket in about a hour

-I don't spend time chasing the perfect load

-case feeder is a must

-Bullet feeder is a must

 

I'm really hoping to see all the kinks worked out of this new DAA primer tube filler. Then time filling tubes is eliminated

[jc3257]

27 minutes ago, Malarky112 said:

Even the Syntech ammo that I run in matches hits 145 PF out of a G34. Where are you guys finding factory ammo that does 130-135PF? 
 

I reload and it’s for $ savings (although not that much saving in 9 minor) but also I really like the softer recoil with my own ammo. 
 

I’ll be honest though, reloading is a pain in the butt. I’m not one of those guys who enjoys it, to me it’s a chore. Everyone likes to talk about how many rounds per hour they can knock out. 
They don’t talk about collecting brass on the range, cleaning it, sorting it (by headstamp if you want consistency). They don’t talk about filling primer tubes or case gauging and inspecting every round. Adjusting your machine for different loads. Of course not everyone does all of those things but it’s all a part of reloading and it all takes time. 
 

 

I can't say for sure with 9mm but Precision Delta 40 match ammo runs 169 PF out of my Atlas Titan and 170 out of my Sig 1911 Max. It would be my assumption their 9mm would be similar as they load for competition use. I have used Freedom's ProMatch some in the past as well. It ran a little hotter but still under 175.

I just don't trust Freedom/Xtreme much lately. I ordered 5000 200gr 40's and received mixed boxes of 180's and 200's. Cost me at a major last year. I got bumped down to minor because the bullets were 180's but loaded for 200's. Never thought to weigh the bullets before but I do now! Found 3 of the last 6 boxes were marked 200gr but were 180's. Trust but verify!

[Ssanders224]

16 minutes ago, jc3257 said:

I can't say for sure with 9mm but Precision Delta 40 match ammo runs 169 PF out of my Atlas Titan and 170 out of my Sig 1911 Max. It would be my assumption their 9mm would be similar as they load for competition use. I have used Freedom's ProMatch some in the past as well. It ran a little hotter but still under 175.
 

 

Your assumption would be correct. 

PD 147gr averages 130 PF in a G17. 

[bret]

14 hours ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 

Every Master and Grand Master shooter I know reloads.

John McClain shoots factory ammo, he told me he ran low before, went to academy sports and bought the same ammo he uses in matches, I think he shoots a .40 in Single Stack.

I have used Precision Delta remanufactured ammo before, it is good and a real Jacketed bullet, many companies selling "Jacketed" bullets are selling plated bullets and calling them jacketed.

I got into reloading years ago to shoot more, used to enjoy it, now it is a necessary chore, I am not to the point of hating it yet, but it isn't something I look forward to either.

luckily there are options out there for shooters that don't want to reload or don't want to get into it, it is a big expense to get into reloading, not only equipment but time and space needed for reloading.

[bret]

28 minutes ago, jc3257 said:

I can't say for sure with 9mm but Precision Delta 40 match ammo runs 169 PF out of my Atlas Titan and 170 out of my Sig 1911 Max. It would be my assumption their 9mm would be similar as they load for competition use. I have used Freedom's ProMatch some in the past as well. It ran a little hotter but still under 175.
 

Their 9mm is loaded for minor, IIRC the 9mm ammo i got from Precision Delta was about 131 PF, very soft shooting, reliable, I never had any problems running any Precision Delta ammo.

[zzt]

Atlanta Arms Select (reman) ammo is 127PF for 115s and 131PF for 124s

Precision Delta reman is 132 for 115s and 132 for 124a

Everglades new is 133 for 115s and 136 for 124s

LAX Ammo new (plated) is 129 for 115s and 137 for 124s.

Magtec Factory is 130 for 115s and 137 for 124s.  This is about the same for any US ammo that is not to NATO specs.

 

I buy Magtec 115s for 16 cents each.  It runs great, as does Blazer (dirty) and several others.

 

I'll repeat what I wrote earlier.  If all I shot was Prod or CO, I would shoot factory ammo at 16 cents each and never reload 9mm.  I wouldn't want to shoot anything lower than 130PF for USPSA, so factory would do just fine.  I shoot maybe 3500 minor 9mm a year for Steel Challenge and some local matches.  So paying 6 cents per round more than reloading costs a whopping $210 per year.  I buy processed brass, so it actually costs me more than 16 cents each to reload.  I would only realize savings if I scrounged brass, cleaned it, polished it, reloaded it, case gauged it, then boxed it.  It's worth $210 a year to avoid doing all of that.  Now if I could just find someone who made good )in my guns) 9mm major ammo at a decent price, I could avoid reloading the 10k of major I shoot every year.

[CHA-LEE]

It's been well established that shooting "Factory" ammo is not a roadblock to achieving maximum performance in the practical shooting games. There are Pro's and Con's to using Factory ammo vs Reloading your own. One thing that a lot of people don't understand about factory ammo is that "Cheap" factory ammo rarely performs the same as good quality "expensive" ammo. Manufacture build quality, accuracy, and consistency of velocity can be significant issues with "Cheap" factory ammo. A good example is Winchester White Box ammo. That stuff is really cheap to buy but its accuracy is usually poor. I have also seen WWB ammo have really inconsistent crimp and velocities. If you use more expensive factory ammo that produces better performance the cost of that stuff is usually much more than the "Cheap" ammo.

 

If you reload your own ammo properly, use good quality components and put effort in developing a load that is best suited to your firearm, you will have ammo that is very accurate, highly reliable, and very consistent. All of this at a much lower per round price point than purchasing "Expensive" factory ammo that produces the same performance. 

 

The moral of the story is that you shouldn't compare the costs of reloading ammo to buying "Cheap" factory ammo as that isn't a viable comparison. You need to do the cost comparison between reloading and buying good quality "expensive" ammo.

 

For most of the common progressive reloading presses on the market (Dillon, Hornady, RCBS, etc) it usually takes reloading about 10K - 20K of ammo (depending on caliber of course) to justify the cost of purchasing the press. After that your per round cost will be dramatically less than buying "expensive" good quality factory ammo. So the real question you need to ask yourself is how much shooting are you realistically going to be doing per year. If you only shoot a couple thousand rounds a year then just buy good quality factory ammo as it will take too many years of reloading to offset the cost of the press. If you are shooting 10K or more a year, then it absolutely makes sense to reload your own ammo.

[lstange]

4 hours ago, Malarky112 said:

Even the Syntech ammo that I run in matches hits 145 PF out of a G34. Where are you guys finding factory ammo that does 130-135PF? 

I had one lot of Syntech 124 grain 9x19 with PF=134 and another with PF=152. Same SKU, same gun, similar temperature, just different lots.

[jschweg]

You can definitely reload in a small apartment. It's not optimal, but you can do it.

My 550 is bolted to a 2x10 and when I want to reload, I clamp it to a table.

I've loaded thousands and thousands of rounds this way and it works just fine. It's annoying to set everything up and tear it down but I just make it a point to do large batches at a time.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[slodsm]

On 2/2/2020 at 1:29 PM, jschweg said:

You can definitely reload in a small apartment. It's not optimal, but you can do it.

My 550 is bolted to a 2x10 and when I want to reload, I clamp it to a table.

I've loaded thousands and thousands of rounds this way and it works just fine. It's annoying to set everything up and tear it down but I just make it a point to do large batches at a time.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

 

Many years ago when I shot ATA Trap like mad, I had the exact same setup for my MEC reloader. I was shooting 4-500 rounds a week practicing plus 200 minimum at matches and AA at 9 bucks a box of 25 would have put me in the poorhouse with a quickness lol. 
 

Where there is a will there is a way. 
 

For me, I reload every single round I shoot aside from my rimfire match stuff. Reloading has been like therapy for me for a long time and I love it. In general I work a 14/14 schedule and I’ll load 1k of 9mm minor, 1/2 that in 40 Major, and probably 100 6.5CM a month. I can buy equal quality ammo and in USPSA ammo is the absolute LAST thing holding me back but I just prefer relaxation if loading my own. 

[ltdmstr]

On 2/2/2020 at 1:29 PM, jschweg said:

You can definitely reload in a small apartment. It's not optimal, but you can do it.

My 550 is bolted to a 2x10 and when I want to reload, I clamp it to a table.

I've loaded thousands and thousands of rounds this way and it works just fine. It's annoying to set everything up and tear it down but I just make it a point to do large batches at a time.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

 

When I lived in a one bedroom apartment I had a 1050 mounted on a night stand next to the bed.  My wife would actually sleep through my reloading except when the primer alarm went off. At that point, she'd just roll over and yell at me to fill the tube then go back to sleep.