.38 special load with Berry's 158 w/ 231, Titegroup, Clays?

[RangerMcFadden]

I’m not saying you can’t make it work but my life got a whole lot easier when I got rid of Berry’s plated. I could never make chrono with em. I now use a .358 coated bullet from Ibejiheads. 

 

So not the advice you are looking for but maybe swap bullets and keep your powder?

[MikeBurgess]

One other thing to keep in mind when looking at book loads vs your results is EVERY GUN IS DIFFERENT my wife and I both have 627s her gun averages 50+FPS slower than mine with 165 grain bullets from the same batch of ammo. 

 

Also I have fond that chronoing a revo is like chornoing 8 different guns as each chamber will run a little different speed 

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by MikeBurgess

[Distant Thunder]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

One other thing to keep in mind when looking at book loads vs your results is EVERY GUN IS DIFFERENT my wife and I both have 627s her gun averages 50+FPS slower than mine with 165 grain bullets from the same batch of ammo. 

 

Also I have fond that chronoing a revo is like chornoing 8 different guns as each chamber will run a little different speed 

 

 

Yup!

[ysrracer]

Here's what my chrono spit out:

 

Name: 4.8 Herco
Shots: 5
Average: 707 ft/s
SD: 28 ft/s
Min: 665 ft/s
Max: 744 ft/s
Spread: 79 ft/s
Power Factor Average: 111
Power Factor Low: 105
Power Factor High: 117
Barometric Pressure: 30 in Hg
Temperature: 52 F
Weight: 158.0 gr.

[ysrracer]

Name: 5.1 Herco
Shots: 8
Average: 790 ft/s
SD: 21 ft/s
Min: 761 ft/s
Max: 824 ft/s
Spread: 63 ft/s
Power Factor Average: 124
Power Factor Low: 120
Power Factor High: 130
Barometric Pressure: 30 in Hg
Temperature: 52 F
Weight: 158.0 gr.

[ysrracer]

Name: 4.4 231
Shots: 8
Average: 710 ft/s
SD: 22 ft/s
Min: 688 ft/s
Max: 763 ft/s
Spread: 75 ft/s
Power Factor Average: 112
Power Factor Low: 108
Power Factor High: 120
Barometric Pressure: 30 in Hg
Temperature: 52 F
Weight: 158.0 gr.

[ysrracer]

Name: 4.6 231 Crimped
Shots: 7
Average: 726 ft/s
SD: 17 ft/s
Min: 698 ft/s
Max: 758 ft/s
Spread: 60 ft/s
Power Factor Average: 114
Power Factor Low: 110
Power Factor High: 119
Barometric Pressure: 30 in Hg
Temperature: 52 F
Weight: 158.0 gr.

[ysrracer]

Name: 3.6 Titegroup Crimped
Shots: 8
Average: 592 ft/s
SD: 12 ft/s
Min: 578 ft/s
Max: 617 ft/s
Spread: 39 ft/s
Power Factor Average: 93
Power Factor Low: 91
Power Factor High: 97
Barometric Pressure: 30 in Hg
Temperature: 53 F
Weight: 158.0 gr.

[ysrracer]

From my GSG 1911 .22 pistol

Name: CCI Mini Mags
Shots: 5
Average: 1036 ft/s
SD: 22 ft/s
Min: 1008 ft/s
Max: 1069 ft/s
Spread: 61 ft/s
Power Factor Average: 41
Power Factor Low: 40
Power Factor High: 42
Barometric Pressure: 30 in Hg
Temperature: 55 F
Weight: 40.0 gr.

[ysrracer]

On 1/25/2020 at 11:53 AM, alecmc said:

3.8 of clays behind a 160 grain makes 130+ PF 

 

I ordered 500 Ibejiheads Coated Bullets just to try out. I can't shoot them indoors, but if they make minor I'll shoot them in Mesquite.

 

I hope the guys in Mesquite don't read this

[Joe4d]

19 hours ago, ysrracer said:

Name: 3.6 Titegroup Crimped
Shots: 8
Average: 592 ft/s
SD: 12 ft/s
Min: 578 ft/s
Max: 617 ft/s
Spread: 39 ft/s
Power Factor Average: 93
Power Factor Low: 91
Power Factor High: 97
Barometric Pressure: 30 in Hg
Temperature: 53 F
Weight: 158.0 gr.

That makes no sense whatsoever, when I am doing over 700 fps with 3.1 grs tightgroup with a 148 MO coated 148 wadcutter.

[ysrracer]

18 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

That makes no sense whatsoever, when I am doing over 700 fps with 3.1 grs tightgroup with a 148 MO coated 148 wadcutter.

 

I'm using a Berry's plated 158 out of a5 inch 627. I checked the scale against another scale. Right on the money

 

I re chrono'd them. Here's the data

 

Name: 3.6 Titegroup Crimped #2

Shots: 7

Average: 591 ft/s

SD: 5 ft/s

Min: 582 ft/s

Max: 599 ft/s

Spread: 17 ft/s

Power Factor Average: 93

Power Factor Low: 91

Power Factor High: 94

Barometric Pressure: 30 in Hg Temperature: 53 F Weight: 158.0 gr.

Edited January 29, 2020 by ysrracer

[Joe4d]

Dunno,,, Buy some .358 lead 158's of some kind...  see what happens. All I can say is eliminate 1 thing at a time to find the problem.
Have you miked your bullets ? miked your chamber throats ? miked your forcing cone, slug barrel measure lands and grooves?
Beg borrow steel some one elses jug of TG to load a few rounds....
Something ISNOT right,,, FYI my gun is a 5 inch pro series 686,, should be near identical barrel

Edited January 29, 2020 by Joe4d

[Joe4d]

On 1/25/2020 at 9:53 PM, PatJones said:

I've been told tightgroup makes the forcing cone a little warmer than other powders. Burns suck if you reload strong hand, I usually forget to tape my middle finger until stage 2.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 

 

On 1/25/2020 at 9:55 PM, PatJones said:

Isn't 105 power factor for speedloader fed revos in IDPA?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 

I dont shoot either game, my point was if "X" load makes 710 with a 148 WC,,, which is loaded to same depth as a 158 SWC It should make at least the same or even higher velocity.
I do reload strong hand,, but umm I must really suck cause I never noticed burns.
Only game I play is pins and if you are reloading you dun lost.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Joe4d

[ysrracer]

Wouldn't a heavier bullet be going slower with the same powder charge?

[Joe4d]

Well normally, but a 148 WC,, is specifically the same bullet without the little pointy section... So same case capacity.BUT an bit more resistance so a bit more pressure.
Id be surprised if , everything equal and using shoulder to judge OAL,,, a 158 SWC, didnt come in either the same or higher than a 148 in this case.
I have both bullets on hand from same MFG,,, next time I set up for 38 will load some and find out and post on this thread just for those with inquiring minds like me that want to know, or at least have one set of data to compare.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Joe4d

[mchapman]

25 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Well normally, but a 148 WC,, is specifically the same bullet without the little pointy section... So same case capacity.BUT an bit more resistance so a bit more pressure.
Id be surprised if , everything equal and using shoulder to judge OAL,,, a 158 SWC, didnt come in either the same or higher than a 148 in this case.

I must have missed something but I thought he was using a 158 gr. Berrys plated round nose, but I 've been wrong before.

[mchapman]

2 hours ago, ysrracer said:

Wouldn't a heavier bullet be going slower with the same powder charge?

With the same powder charge, the heavier bullet will be faster with more energy, dropping to a lighter bullet there is less resistance and less pressure and usually a slower speed. In another thread about steel loads, MWP  said if you do your homework you can use two different bullets with the same charge and have loads with the lighter bullet for steel challenge and the heavier one that makes power factor for uspsa, and icore. Now there may not be much difference in the speed and sometimes they may be slower or close to the same. For example with  3.8 gr and a 158 gr bullet = 825 ft per second then with the same charge of 3.8 gr and a 115 gr. bullet =826 ft per second, so heavy is 130 PF and 115 is 95 PF.   I want to add that this is with coated bullets, they seem to run faster than plated.

Edited January 30, 2020 by mchapman

[Joe4d]

8 hours ago, mchapman said:

I must have missed something but I thought he was using a 158 gr. Berrys plated round nose, but I 've been wrong before.

IIRC was a Berry plated SWC,, so yeh a bit slower than coated, and yeh heavier so maybe a bit difference. I would think the pressure be higher with same charge so ud get to max charge sooner.  But As mentioned I am at MINIMUM,,, and like a 120 fps difference.
I mean with basically same design gun, If I can make 700 with a 3.1 gr minimum charge of TG under a 148 WC,,, I would think that  velocity should be  over 700 with his 3.6 gr under a 158 He's at 590 at near max charge. Something is off definitely. 
Simplest thing would be to try a regular cast or poly coated bullet see if you get closer to book velocities or Mike the Berry's

[mchapman]

On 1/29/2020 at 11:37 AM, ysrracer said:

 

I ordered 500 Ibejiheads Coated Bullets just to try out. I can't shoot them indoors, but if they make minor I'll shoot them in Mesquite.

 

I hope the guys in Mesquite don't read this

You may just want to load and bring some loads that might be a bit more "juicy"" so you can attempt that EVIL spinner at Mesquite for a chance at some bonus points!1 LOL

[Vincerama]

OK, so I loaded up some .38 Long Colt, which I know you can't quite compare apples to apples with .38 special, but for general reference.

with 160 gn rn, no groove, S&S Casting hiTek coated .358 bullets, show from a 4 inch 686+ measured at the muzze with a magnetospeed chrony;

OAL I believe was 1.44 ish. Sorry for this non-number, my dial caliper broke. The bullet nose sticks out as much as it did with my .38 special load, but of course the

shorter case means the OAL is shorter.

 

3.6 grains (actually more like 3.55) of Ramshot Competition averaged 891 fps = 134 pf

3.6 grains Clays averaged 846 fps = 135 pf

3.8 grains Clays averaged 888 fps = 142 pf

4.0 grains Clays averaged 919 fps = 147 pf

 

I didn't see pressure signs like flattened primers, and the cases all slid out. I then loaded any remaining rounds into moonclips and shot them through my 627 (The magnetospeed won't strap onto the 627 due to the angled half lug, but straps onto the 686's full underlug. I had considered using a 4.75 inch barelled Vaquero, just so I could load and unload it without unstrapping the chrony, but .. didn't)

All the moonclips slid out easily.

What I noticed with the clays was that after firing, sometimes this little curl of black smoke would waft out from around the forcing cone area after firing the round.

 

In anycase, I think 3.6 grains of RC or Clays works well. And probably more accurate than I can shoot.

 

I think I will drop the RC charge to 3.5 and use that for the next USPSA match I can get to.  I'll chrony that. I had previous done some measurements with .38 special cases and found that 3.55 grains of RC gave about 132 pf or so, versys 134 pf in the long colt case. I mean, there is error of course, and I measured from a 4 inch barrel, not the 5 inches of my 627.

 

Just some data FYI, make of it what you will.

 

 

[357454]

A little late to the Party?  I load the 158 Berrys to an OAL of 1.207 with 3.6 grains of Clays, Average velocity is 793, Extreme spread is 22, just makes 125 PF in a 6 1/2" barrel 627. . This should give you a good starting point. 

[ysrracer]

On 2/13/2020 at 5:47 PM, 357454 said:

A little late to the Party?  I load the 158 Berrys to an OAL of 1.207 with 3.6 grains of Clays, Average velocity is 793, Extreme spread is 22, just makes 125 PF in a 6 1/2" barrel 627. . This should give you a good starting point. 

 

In my 627 5" Performance Center

 

Name: 3.7 Clays 158gr Berry's Bullet

Shots: 6

Average: 748 ft/s

SD: 20 ft/s

Min: 730 ft/s

Max: 776 ft/s

Spread: 46 ft/s

Power Factor Average: 118

Power Factor Low: 115

Power Factor High: 122

Weight: 158.0 gr.

Edited February 15, 2020 by ysrracer

[Vincerama]

On 2/13/2020 at 11:03 AM, Vincerama said:

 

 

3.6 grains (actually more like 3.55) of Ramshot Competition averaged 891 fps = 134 pf

 

 

Sorry, It should have said 841 fps NOT 891 fps.

 

3.6 grains (actually more like 3.55) of Ramshot Competition averaged 841 fps = 134 pf