Specific STEEL CHALLENGE question

[johnbu]

This is a Steel Challenge rule question, which are different than the normal USPSA rules. I hope this is the correct place for this question.

 

Specifically Steel Challenge rule 5.3.3 states

 

"5.3.3
“Stand by” This command should be followed by the start signal within 1 to 4 seconds. It is recommended that the start signal be consistent for each string started for a given competitor—a cadence is desirable in Steel Challenge. The interval may change between competitors, however."

 

 

In the SC endorsement it was stated that a predictable cadence was the goal so the competitors could predict the beep (which is clearly different than usual uspsa mode).

 

My questions...

 

 

If a competitor asks what cadence the RO will be using, what should the RO answer?

 

... can (should?) the RO announce what the candence will be?

 

While the RO "may" change cadence between competitors, should they?  It would seem unless every competitor gets a new cadence, then some may have an advantage knowing what the prior cadence was.

Edited January 20, 2020 by johnbu

[egd5]

Interesting questions. I'll add one. Can the competitor ask for a cadence, something like- can you count to 1 thousand 2 before beeping?

[Thomas H]

Questions from two people:

"1) If a competitor asks what cadence the RO will be using, what should the RO answer?

2) ... can (should?) the RO announce what the cadence will be?

3) While the RO "may" change cadence between competitors, should they? 

4) Can the competitor ask for a cadence, something like- can you count to 1 thousand 2 before beeping?"

 

IMO:

 

1)  You'll find out on the first beep.

2) No

3) Yes

4) Ask, yes.  Get it?  No.

 

The competitor doesn't get to choose the cadence.  The shooter doesn't get to know the cadence on the first beep, other than it will be within 1-4 seconds.  The shooter will know that successive beeps will be similar in time to the first beep.  The shooter should NOT get to expect that they will know the cadence based on watching the previous competitor.

 

That way everyone starts the first beep the same way (knowing it will be within 1-4 seconds but it isn't up to the competitor) and knowing that the rest of the start signals should be roughly similar to the first one. 

 

There isn't a specific rule delineating these requirements, however.

[nasty618]

This might be relevant to the discussion https://nroi.org/ro-best-practices/beep/#more-453 

[IVC]

RO shouldn't commit to any cadence or in any other way indicate his intent because any discrepancy from what he says to the shooter and what he does would become a contentious issue that could warrant a reshoot in case the RO didn't do what he said he would. It would come under the "RO interference," much like too long or too short a delay from "are you ready?" to the beep. 

 

Reminds me of discussing the (non existent in USPSA) "Do you understand the course of fire?" question that is sometimes asked. What if the shooter says "no?" Should the RO now explain it and who's at fault if the explanation is not complete, e.g., the RO doesn't mention some or some other target? 

 

So, in general, the RO shouldn't introduce any variables into the process and the only communication should be "by the book." The only exception that I can think of is when there is a potential safety issue and the RO would like to know which way the competitor plans to go during, e.g., a run uprange. This is simply to stay out of the way and is not binding on either the competitor or the RO. 

[C_Tanner]

On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2020 at 11:06 AM, johnbu said:

This is a Steel Challenge rule question, which are different than the normal USPSA rules. I hope this is the correct place for this question.

 

Specifically Steel Challenge rule 5.3.3 states

 

"5.3.3
“Stand by” This command should be followed by the start signal within 1 to 4 seconds. It is recommended that the start signal be consistent for each string started for a given competitor—a cadence is desirable in Steel Challenge. The interval may change between competitors, however."

 

 

In the SC endorsement it was stated that a predictable cadence was the goal so the competitors could predict the beep (which is clearly different than usual uspsa mode).

 

My questions...

 

 

If a competitor asks what cadence the RO will be using, what should the RO answer?

 

... can (should?) the RO announce what the candence will be?

 

While the RO "may" change cadence between competitors, should they?  It would seem unless every competitor gets a new cadence, then some may have an advantage knowing what the prior cadence was.

a very similar question was brought up while I was taking the steel challenge endorsement class. If I remember correctly, our instructor stated that if a competitor asked to hear the cadence, it was ok to give it to them.

 

most RO's have a pretty predicable cadence that usually don't change.... I know I do. IDK why a RO would change his/her cadence for every shooter.

  

On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2020 at 8:37 PM, egd5 said:

Interesting questions. I'll add one. Can the competitor ask for a cadence, something like- can you count to 1 thousand 2 before beeping?

 

I'm pretty sure this would be a hard no.

[bret]

I have the same cadence for everyone I run in Steel Challenge, they will figure it out.

[Hoops]

6 hours ago, bret said:

I have the same cadence for everyone I run in Steel Challenge, they will figure it out.

 I am in the same camp as Bret.  We had this discussion about 3 months ago.  My cadence is the same with all shooters.  I use the 2 count.  Steel Challenge is all about speed and as an RO, I don’t want to have a negative influence on any shooter.  No one that I know likes the 1 beep and very few want to stand ready for a 4 count.  I prefer to see everyone perform to the best of their ability.  

[xpierrat]

Well IMHO we as RO's are there to serve the shooters to provide a fair and safe stage not to try and trick them or mess up their chance at a good stage.   I at one time tried to change it up between shooters but found it to be more work than I wanted especially on a multi day match so I pretty much have settled on the same cadence. usually a  ( 21/2 to 3 sec ) If a shooter askes for a fast ( 1 sec ) or a slower cadence I will try to do so to accommodate their wishes.

  If they want to try and time the cadence so be it... just don't jump it...

 

We often compare SC to drag racing with guns... For those that do not know the timing lights at drag races are constant at all events and cutting the light is a big part of a good run.

 

 

[zzt]

A lot of ROs fast beep.  More shooters acting like ROs tend to fast beep.  It is annoying.  I can't tell you how many times the fast beep startled me into action.  For the past year I've stopped my draw and told the timer it was too fast.  I haven't had a complaint.

 

When I RO USPSA I vary the time over the 1 to 4 second range.  For SCSA I use a 2 count and everybody gets the same.  The only time I vary is if I see the shooter anticipating the beep.  The next beep will be a tad slower to see if he creeps.  If he does I restart him.

[AzShooter]

The RO's I'm familiar with all run the same cadence from shooter to shooter.  Each has their own way to do it but are consistent for all the competitors as it should be.  

 

Like ZZT I hate the Fast beep.  It's supposed to come between 1 and 4 seconds.  One second is not too fast but right after Are You Ready with no delay is a bit too fast.

 

Still, I am normally the first shooter in my squad.  I guess the other members want to take care of me.  If the RO is fast on the beep I normally let it slide for the first run and then explain the 1 - 4 second rule.  It's no big thing at local matches but I can see what the problem would be at major matches.  Things should be the same ( within the rules) for each shooter.

[Sigarmsp226]

I RO a monthly match (not an official USPSA tier match - more like Outlaw Steel) that has 30-45 shooters each month and because of our range set up I manage two or three different courses. This means that I call out these commands about (40 shooters x 5 strings x 3 courses) = about 600 times (give or take 100) each month....This has allowed me to learn a lot about myself and our shooters with respect to this topic..

 

I have been asked before a monthly match to provide an example of the planned cadence and I am happy to oblige but I also tell the entire group of shooters that I will do my best to maintain the same cadence throughout the entire match to the best of my ability BUT if I see a shooter starting to “creep” I will provide one warning before issuing a 3 second penalty....It happens sometimes when We get to the money round where shooters are competing for gift certificates or a prize (ammo, shooting bag, etc.).....During the match one infraction goes with a warning...During the money round - we have zero allowance for creeping.....Mark

[xpierrat]

7 hours ago, zzt said:

A lot of ROs fast beep.  More shooters acting like ROs tend to fast beep.  It is annoying.  I can't tell you how many times the fast beep startled me into action.  For the past year I've stopped my draw and told the timer it was too fast.  I haven't had a complaint.

 

When I RO USPSA I vary the time over the 1 to 4 second range.  For SCSA I use a 2 count and everybody gets the same.  The only time I vary is if I see the shooter anticipating the beep.  The next beep will be a tad slower to see if he creeps.  If he does I restart him.

 A Fast beep ( less than the one second ) is considered a type of RO interference ….