Coating Getting Stripped During Seating

[anonymouscuban]

 

Hey all. Hoping you can help me solve a recent issue I've been having.

 

The coating on the bullet is getting stripped off during the seating process. Mostly on one side of the bullet. This occurs with about have the cartridges I make. This is a new issue. It's never happened before once I got everything dialed in.

 

I'm running Brazos Precision 135gr .356 projectiles. My own mixed range brass. Using Lee carbide dies on a Hornady LnL press. Nothing changed leading up to the issue. Same bullets. Same dies. Same press. There also doesn't seem to be any consistency with the brass head stamp. Happens with all of them.

 

I've tried adjusting the amount of bell on expansion and that doesn't seem to help. I've balled the case to the extreme and still happens.

 

The only change I've made recently is I switched from dry to wet tumbling. Can't imagine that's it but thought it worth mention just in case.

 

By the way, I have a PTX expander that I've never used. I can try it if you think it may work better. Again, just wanted to mention it.

 

The rounds chamber well, shoot well and are not causing any leading issues so far. I've been using the problem rounds in practice and the good stuff in matches but would like to solve for this.

 

Any help is much appreciated.

 

 

 

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[GregJ]

5 minutes ago, anonymouscuban said:

The only change I've made recently is I switched from dry to wet tumbling.

Wet tumbling removes all powder burn residue, which ask as a lube.  Take 100 or so cases, dry tumble them, and see if same problem happens with them. 

[zombywoof]

Are you seating and removing Belling with the same die?

 

I have read their bullets are soft. Maybe the new batch is not cured correctly.

 

Take a bullet and flatten it into a cube with a hammer and see if the coating flakes off.

[Furrly]

Have you always used brazo bullets?? 

[Phlier]

It is possible that the dust from dry tumbling was giving you enough lube to prevent the coating from being removed, but there are other possibilities to explore. 
 

I cast and powder coat a minimum of 1k per week of 9mm. Since I have my dies all dialed in, if I see powder coating getting removed during bullet seating, I know that it’s due to the PC not being properly cured. But this assumes that there isn’t an issue with how the dies are setup. 
 

I load a .358 124gr bullet in 9mm, and use a slightly larger expander  die: NOE’s .360/.356. This larger expander helps to prevent the brass from swaging down the bullet to too small of a diameter, and also helps to keep the PC from getting overly thinned out, or at the extreme, getting peeled off of the bullet. 
 

To determine if the coating is properly cured, take a sledge hammer to one. Pound it standing up, and then laying down. No matter how much you deform the bullet, a properly cured coating will survive this completely intact... no flaking or peeling. 
 

If the bullet coating passes this test, then you need to examine/rethink your expanding setup, both the size of the expander and how deep you run it. 
 

If you do end up making any changes to your expander, make sure you check for proper neck tension. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Phlier

[perttime]

I'm not familiar with Hornady LnL press ... but I had shaving issues before a pivot point on my ancient Dillon cracked. Some cases didn't get enough bell, some did. It was a pivot for the Dillon powder system, operated at the expander station.

 

Are you sure something isn't about to let go on your machine?

[m700]

Wet tumbling can definately remove all natural lube plus you lack the polish thats added in wet tumbiling. Something you can do to bring a little more lube back into the equation if you're not spraying with lanolin is to drain your wet tumbler rinse and refill with clean water and run again with armoral wash/wax. It adds a good amount of lube to the case and can be enough to function smoothly. I started doing this but only after cleaning 30k cases without doing it. So ive just been lubing.

 

What does the bell look like? is it still in good shape? 

 

I had this issue years ago and it turned out my powder die had backed out a little over time and I hadnt noticed as I was sharing the measure between heads and tightened the die nuts if I ever noticed them loose without double checking.

[radny97]

Wet tumbling removes all powder burn residue, which ask as a lube.  Take 100 or so cases, dry tumble them, and see if same problem happens with them. 

^^^^ this


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[Postal Bob]

2 hours ago, GregJ said:

Wet tumbling removes all powder burn residue, which ask as a lube.  Take 100 or so cases, dry tumble them, and see if same problem happens with them. 

That's the problem. I also find that cases that have been wet tumbled. drag on the expander ball in the sizing die, and also on the powder funnel expander. Whenever I buy fired brass that's been wet tumbled, I run them through my dry tumbler with dirty media for an hour or two to put a little bit of residue on the cases.

[dave33]

3 hours ago, anonymouscuban said:

 

Hey all. Hoping you can help me solve a recent issue I've been having.

 

The coating on the bullet is getting stripped off during the seating process. Mostly on one side of the bullet. This occurs with about have the cartridges I make. This is a new issue. It's never happened before once I got everything dialed in.

 

I'm running Brazos Precision 135gr .356 projectiles. My own mixed range brass. Using Lee carbide dies on a Hornady LnL press. Nothing changed leading up to the issue. Same bullets. Same dies. Same press. There also doesn't seem to be any consistency with the brass head stamp. Happens with all of them.

 

I've tried adjusting the amount of bell on expansion and that doesn't seem to help. I've balled the case to the extreme and still happens.

 

The only change I've made recently is I switched from dry to wet tumbling. Can't imagine that's it but thought it worth mention just in case.

 

By the way, I have a PTX expander that I've never used. I can try it if you think it may work better. Again, just wanted to mention it.

 

The rounds chamber well, shoot well and are not causing any leading issues so far. I've been using the problem rounds in practice and the good stuff in matches but would like to solve for this.

 

Any help is much appreciated.

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

You and I have basically the same setup.  Im currently loading Brazos 135gr bullets (.357 diameter) on a LNL press using Lee dies and brass that has been wet tumbled and I don't scrape a single flake of coating while loading, ever.  What I may be doing differently than you are doing is expanding my brass with a NOE expander die before throwing the powder and seating the bullet.  An expander die like a NOE or Lyman M die makes a nice little pocket that holds the bullet perfectly straight up as it goes into the seating die.  Try one of these and your shaving issues will go away.  Also, if you are trying to seat and crimp at the same time, separate those steps.  Using mixed range brass makes this very difficult, if that's what you are using.

[GMP]

Like Phlier said, NOE 2 stage expander instead of just flare.   It floats in the Lee Univerasl die body and you adjust the depth of the plug so larger dia at the mouth allows just seating the bullet square by hand.  Also, if you have a combo seat/crimp die, make sure the die body is adjusted high enough so that the case is not being taper crimped while the bullet is still being seated.  I have loaded thousands of Brazos and precision coated bullets on my LNL with this setup with excellent results.   I also wet tumble in a FART.  To make things run a little smoother I spray the inside of a plastic shoe box with dry PTFE spray lube from Home Depot and let the carrier evap for a couple min.    Dump in a few hundred cases, close lid and shake.  Just enough sticks for a little lubrication with no mess like wet lubes.  Dump finished ammo on a large rag and roll around to remove any remaining PTFE.  The question of dirty inside cases influencing the process is a non issue.

[anonymouscuban]

Thanks for all the replies. Wet tumbling does sound like it may be the culprit. Its the easiest thing to confirm or rule out so I will start with it.

I do lube my cases with a lanolin/alcohol mix but I avoid getting lube inside the case. I spray the inside of a ziplock bag and then put the cases inside and shake. Is it OK to lube the inside of the case?

For the test, I'm gonna dry tumble a batch of cases and see how goes. Will report back.

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[anonymouscuban]

Like Phlier said, NOE 2 stage expander instead of just flare.   It floats in the Lee Univerasl die body and you adjust the depth of the plug so larger dia at the mouth allows just seating the bullet square by hand.  Also, if you have a combo seat/crimp die, make sure the die body is adjusted high enough so that the case is not being taper crimped while the bullet is still being seated.  I have loaded thousands of Brazos and precision coated bullets on my LNL with this setup with excellent results.   I also wet tumble in a FART.  To make things run a little smoother I spray the inside of a plastic shoe box with dry PTFE spray lube from Home Depot and let the carrier evap for a couple min.    Dump in a few hundred cases, close lid and shake.  Just enough sticks for a little lubrication with no mess like wet lubes.  Dump finished ammo on a large rag and roll around to remove any remaining PTFE.  The question of dirty inside cases influencing the process is a non issue.

GMP....

So my current expander die is the Lee dies that you can drop powder through. However, I don't drop the powder in this station. I use the Hornady Powder Measure that came with my LnL press. That happens in the station after the expander.

I am not familiar with the NOE expander but a quick Google search makes it seem like its similar/same as the Hornady PTX expander. This is the one you drop inside the Powder Measure. Not sure if I'm correct though.

And yes, I am using the Lee die that seats and crimps at the same time. I will check the height of the actual die to see if your assumption is correct; that the case is being crimped before the bullet is seated. That sounds very possible.

At work so will try this stuff when I get home tonight.

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[GMP]

The NOE expander plug fits in a Lee Universal flaring die body.  You could alo use a Lyman "M" die but the plugs are cheap, and very flexible as you can fine tune the size to the bullet dia.  All my dies Hornady except the expander as noted.  What I do, after deprime and wet tumble/dry:

 

1st stage resize only 

2nd stage expand

3rd powder drop only

4th seat only 

5th taper crimp

 

Wet tumble is fine and not the problem.  If your just flaring your then using the bullet as a case expander, bad idea for a lead coated bullet.  Better to use tooling that is a lot harder.  With jacketed you can get away with anything, coated is a PIA without proper process, especially the .358 sizes.  Tonight I'll try and look at the exact sizes I use for different size bullets. 

 

 

[124gr9mm]

I use a Hornady Lock n Load as well (but use Hornady dies).

 

Never had issues with 9mm, but I had some scraping with .38 Special one time.  In that case it was a small piece of lead/metal in the seating die.  I took all my dies apart and cleaned them really thoroughly and the problem went away.

[anonymouscuban]

Ok guys. Issue resolved.

It was the seating/crimp die. It was set too low in the bushing so it was crimping before the bullet was seated. I backed it out several turns and that solved it. Made a few dummy rounds. Pulled the bullets. Hi-tek coating 100% intact.

Thanks to everyone for the help. Beers on me!!!

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[Furrly]

You should seat and crimp on different stations.. 

[Kenstone]

23 hours ago, anonymouscuban said:

GMP....

So my current expander die is the Lee dies that you can drop powder through. However, I don't drop the powder in this station. I use the Hornady Powder Measure that came with my LnL press. That happens in the station after the expander.

I have replaced the Lee 9mm expander with one that's a bigger dia. (38S&W) for loading oversized bullets.

It's a direct swap:

https://www.titanreloading.com/lee-se1699-pm-exp-plug-38-sw?search=Lee SE1699

If you are NOT dropping powder thru it you have to have the PM adaptor(comes with the die) screwed into the top of the Lee expander to act as a stop, or the expander will just move up, and not expand/flare the case.

See below image.

works for me,

Edit: adding some auto wash and wax product to your final rinse after wet tumbling will lube the cases both inside and out. That auto wash and wax product can also be added to the tumbling water, instead of dish soap.

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Kenstone
add image

[Baldwin]

I'm having this same issue on a Dillon 550C and Dillon dies.  I've just started loading 9mm 120gr truncated cone bullets from Bayou Bullets.  I cannot seem to consistently seat a bullet without scraping off a little of the coating.  I've been adjusting the flare but cannot seem to find the sweet spot.  Pretty frustrating.  I do wet tumble and use Armoral Wash and Wax.  Any help would be appreciated.

[anonymouscuban]

I'm having this same issue on a Dillon 550C and Dillon dies.  I've just started loading 9mm 120gr truncated cone bullets from Bayou Bullets.  I cannot seem to consistently seat a bullet without scraping off a little of the coating.  I've been adjusting the flare but cannot seem to find the sweet spot.  Pretty frustrating.  I do wet tumble and use Armoral Wash and Wax.  Any help would be appreciated.

 

Are you seating and crimping in the same die?

 

If so, check to make sure the die is set correctly. That was my issue. The die was set too deep and was crimping the case before the bullet was seated. I adjusted it like suggested by a few and resolved the issue completely.

 

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[Shep]

On 12/9/2019 at 12:00 PM, Phlier said:

It is possible that the dust from dry tumbling was giving you enough lube to prevent the coating from being removed, but there are other possibilities to explore. 
 

I cast and powder coat a minimum of 1k per week of 9mm. Since I have my dies all dialed in, if I see powder coating getting removed during bullet seating, I know that it’s due to the PC not being properly cured. But this assumes that there isn’t an issue with how the dies are setup. 
 

I load a .358 124gr bullet in 9mm, and use a slightly larger expander  die: NOE’s .360/.356. This larger expander helps to prevent the brass from swaging down the bullet to too small of a diameter, and also helps to keep the PC from getting overly thinned out, or at the extreme, getting peeled off of the bullet. 
 

To determine if the coating is properly cured, take a sledge hammer to one. Pound it standing up, and then laying down. No matter how much you deform the bullet, a properly cured coating will survive this completely intact... no flaking or peeling. 
 

If the bullet coating passes this test, then you need to examine/rethink your expanding setup, both the size of the expander and how deep you run it. 
 

If you do end up making any changes to your expander, make sure you check for proper neck tension. 

I agree, deform one and see if the coating flakes off. I you ha e different lot #'s try another one.

[Baldwin]

20 hours ago, anonymouscuban said:

 

Are you seating and crimping in the same die?

 

If so, check to make sure the die is set correctly. That was my issue. The die was set too deep and was crimping the case before the bullet was seated. I adjusted it like suggested by a few and resolved the issue completely.

 

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No, I'm seating and crimping with separate dies.

[GMP]

10 hours ago, Baldwin said:

No, I'm seating and crimping with separate dies.

 

Thats good but you still could be applying a crimp if your seating die is not adjusted correctly(die body too low in tool head).  This and the flare vs expander, can't stress this enough to avoid issues with coated.  Coating is funny,  you can smash a bullet with a hammer and it will not chip off. It will not burn off with a propane torch.  But, you can EASILY scrape it off with a sharp edge of a harder material than lead with very little force. Even the best coated bullets have very thin coating and need special handling.  

[Rallyx100]

On 12/15/2019 at 5:58 PM, GMP said:

 

Thats good but you still could be applying a crimp if your seating die is not adjusted correctly(die body too low in tool head).  This and the flare vs expander, can't stress this enough to avoid issues with coated.  Coating is funny,  you can smash a bullet with a hammer and it will not chip off. It will not burn off with a propane torch.  But, you can EASILY scrape it off with a sharp edge of a harder material than lead with very little force. Even the best coated bullets have very thin coating and need special handling.  

I agree, the seating die can sometimes take the bell off the case before the bullet is fully seated, I really don't care the the lee expanding powderdrop die either as it bells the case mouth too much, I prefer the lee universal case expanding die and use the NOE expander plug for the size bullet you are seating.

[Aric]

Are the bullets vertical in the case before they are seated?  I had an issue where the bullet got gouged on one side during seating.  It was counterintuitive but less bell fixed my problems.  The bullet should fit snuggly and vertically in the case before seating.  It they were loose or leaning I had issues.