Staging Areas - USPSA, SCSA, Multi Gun

[IVC]

Recently, I shot a local Steel Challenge match and noticed that while the process was similar to USPSA, there were sufficient differences. We didn't have a SCSA endorsed RO on the squad, so we ended up in some smaller discussions about the rules and commands. For example, an experienced shooter was pointing out that the hammer need not be dropped in rimfire divisions, but he also claimed that the command itself changed from "If finished, hammer down holster/flag" to "If finished, flag, bag" (or something to that extent). 

 

So, when I got home, I looked up the rules and how it's all supposed to work. To my surprise, I found out there was an online "endorsement" program for currently active ROs to get the "SCSA endorsement," so instead of just going over the rules, I first read the book then took the online course. It was relatively quick and efficient, but it left some questions open. That's why I'm starting this thread...

 

In "Module 2" at around 2:56 mark the following screen pops up: 

 

 

It states in bold that there are no staging areas and that guns must be uncased on the line. On the other hand, the rule book talks about staging areas and how they can be used. Clearly the module is not up to date since the rule book is authoritative on this matter. 

 

So, I looked at the three sets of rules: USPSA Pistol/PCC, USPSA Multi Gun and SCSA (also under USPSA). I was interested to see how the *long* gun handling is defined and whether it's the same rules in all three. I did a keyword search for "uncasing" and "staging." Here is what I found (and what my question is about):

 

USPSA Pistol/PCC

• "Staging" doesn't appear at all.
• "Uncasing" appears in 2.4.1.1 (casing/uncasing in safety areas), 5.2.1.7 (... with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction directly into and within 2 yards of a side berm or backstop.) and in 10.5.19 (DQ for muzzle direction). 

 

USPSA Multi Gun

• "Staging" appears in 2.4.1 (A bagging/un-bagging/staging area must be provided for every stage or shooting bay, ...), 2.4.3 (cannot be next to safe areas), 2.5.2 (shotgun pre-loading areas restrictions), 2.6.1 (again, cannot be next to safe areas), 5.2.2.1.4 (When transporting non-preloaded long guns from the staging area to the start position and back...), 8.3.1.3 (Shotgun pre-loading area requirements) and 8.4.2.3 (RO clearing abandoned guns and transport to staging area).
• "Uncasing" appears in the same context as in Pistol/PCC rules with slightly off sections: 2.6.2.1 (similar to 2.4.1.1 in main rules), 5.2.4.1 (similar to 5.2.1.7 in main rules) and 10.5.20 (same as 10.5.19 in main rules).

 

SCSA

• "Staging" appears in 1.1.4 (cold range, gun handling in staging/safety areas), 5.1.3 (...may unbag or remove their firearm from the 3-gun cart or case into a side berm or staging area...)
• "Uncasing" appears only in 5.1.2 (When casing or uncasing any firearm at the firing position, the muzzle of the firearm must always be pointed downrange.)

 

Looking at the rules, it seems that the idea is to have the following protocol for long guns in all three disciplines:

• Arrive at the match with the long gun in the case and flag in the chamber.
• If the flag is not in the chamber, go to the safety area, handle the gun, insert flag, put on the cart, put back in the bag or carry in vertical position with the flag.
• When "on deck," retrieve the long gun: if flagged, go to within 2 yards of a berm (anywhere) and uncase it while not sweeping anyone, point up and don't touch action or even the red dot (that would be "gun handling").
• Walk with the uncased/flagged gun (pointing up) to the start position, handle it between "make ready" and "range is clear," then go back to within 2 yards of a berm and case it or put it on a cart.
• Alternatively, get to the start position with a cased gun or gun on the cart and handle it after "make ready," making sure that the muzzle remains pointed downrange. If the gun doesn't have flag in the case, that's okay, but it must have it if it's on the cart. At the end of COF, you must insert flag (cannot just case it as-is) as part of the protocol and then you can case it right there (before "range is clear"). 
• You can carry the gun around in vertical position, e.g., on a sling, if you enjoy torture. It must be flagged and no magazine.

 

If this is the case, what is the purpose of the "staging areas?" It's an extra area where the long guns are supposed to be handled, but if there is already an exemption of "within 2 yards of the berm" why have an extra area? Is this just so that it can be in the middle of the stage (away from the berm) and define an alternate "safe muzzle direction?" Based on rules both "staging areas" and "within 2 yards of the berm" don't require RO supervision to case/uncase guns, which means that they have to be positioned such that people don't get muzzle-swept. A staging area that generally just points downrange doesn't seem safe for casing/uncasing when people are also downrange. 

 

Another question is about SCSA. They don't have an exact counterpart of "2 yards from the berm" rule even if the rules talk about "unbagging into the berm." Is it allowed to pick a berm in SCSA and use it to case/uncase without RO supervision? The rules don't prohibit it, but then "module 2" claims that uncasing must be done on the line and that staging areas don't apply. 

 

Any thoughts on the uniform and consistent way for handling long guns in these three disciplines? 

[RadarTech]

I would recommend sending this to DNROI@uspsa.org

Troy will provide answers and have corrections made to the course as needed.

[Schutzenmeister]

I also recommend contacting RMI Kevin Imel.  IIRC, he's the one who developed the SCSA Endorsement module to which you refer.

[IVC]

I sent an e-mail to DNROI@uspsa.org and I'll post here any response. 

 

Separately, what's the supposed difference between a staging area and an area within 2 yards of a berm - both can be used for casing and uncasing and neither can be used for gun handling. What is special/different about a staging area? 

[Schutzenmeister]

A staging area is required to have a table or rack on which to place your long gun.  Within 2 yards of a berm can be just about anywhere adjacent to a berm ... no rack or table required.

 

At a berm you can (realistically) only bag or unbag the firearm.  A staging area has a rack or table for you to place the firearm.

[IVC]

1 hour ago, Schutzenmeister said:

At a berm you can (realistically) only bag or unbag the firearm.  A staging area has a rack or table for you to place the firearm.

Thanks - based on that, I would assume that you can leave a gun unattended at a staging area, e.g., you can put your long gun in the rack and keep it there until you're ready to move to the next stage. A rack will also naturally point guns in "reasonably vertical" direction, so no issue there. 

 

However, what if it's a table? Can you leave your gun unattended at a table because it's declared a "staging area" and how do you handle the "safe muzzle direction?" I'm asking because I don't really know what the constraints are, particularly since the rule book doesn't address it the way it does for the safety areas or the "2 yards from the berm" areas, both of which explicitly declare how the muzzle has to be oriented so there is no sweeping. (I know that guns can be left at a safety area unattended and that it's often used when they are next to a bathroom.)

[Schutzenmeister]

See USPSA MG Rule 2.4.2 ... Tables must be adjacent to a berm.  Granted, the exact distance isn't specified, but I've never seen one that wasn't within a couple of feet of the berm.  (i.e., "Adjacent" = next to, not 10 feet away!)

 

Hope that clarifies ...

[mchapman]

The 6 feet from a berm is also because a lot of people use gun carts, Park your buggy pointing to the berm with your long guns on it.  All long guns MUST be flagged. Yes you can leave your cased and flagged long gun unattended on the staging table. If uncased and flagged, laying on a staging area table muzzle MUST point to berm.

[07yzryder]

Well now I know the section to quote, I was at a local match and the RO gave a stern warning to a PCC shooter who uncased his firearm at the make ready. He put the case on the ground adjacent to the start area, muzzle down range. unzipped and grabbed the firearm. The RO said he could DQ him because he unzipped all the way down and exposed the muzzle (down range) and the legal way to uncase was to unzip halfway leaving the muzzle half zipped so it doesnt "flag" anyone. 

 

I immediately asked him how that works because he was given the make ready command, if there is someone down range to flag the RO should be called into question.

 

I was told rules are rules and follow them or get DQ'd.

 

Also i now have the APP which has the rules.

[broadside72]

18 minutes ago, 07yzryder said:

Well now I know the section to quote, I was at a local match and the RO gave a stern warning to a PCC shooter who uncased his firearm at the make ready. He put the case on the ground adjacent to the start area, muzzle down range. unzipped and grabbed the firearm. The RO said he could DQ him because he unzipped all the way down and exposed the muzzle (down range) and the legal way to uncase was to unzip halfway leaving the muzzle half zipped so it doesnt "flag" anyone. 

 

I immediately asked him how that works because he was given the make ready command, if there is someone down range to flag the RO should be called into question.

 

I was told rules are rules and follow them or get DQ'd.

 

Also i now have the APP which has the rules.

That RO needs some training. Ask him to show you the rule

[RadarTech]

43 minutes ago, 07yzryder said:

Well now I know the section to quote, I was at a local match and the RO gave a stern warning to a PCC shooter who uncased his firearm at the make ready. He put the case on the ground adjacent to the start area, muzzle down range. unzipped and grabbed the firearm. The RO said he could DQ him because he unzipped all the way down and exposed the muzzle (down range) and the legal way to uncase was to unzip halfway leaving the muzzle half zipped so it doesnt "flag" anyone. 

 

I immediately asked him how that works because he was given the make ready command, if there is someone down range to flag the RO should be called into question.

 

I was told rules are rules and follow them or get DQ'd.

 

Also i now have the APP which has the rules.

 

While the RO may need some training, I would recommend this course of action:

 

1. Know the rules yourself

2. Have the rule book or electronic version handy

3. Show the applicable rule to the RO and educate him/her.

 

In this case the rules for USPSA competitions (NOT SCSA or multigun ) are on page 29 of the rules book and this COULD be problematic..

as it is written I am unsure if he uncased BEFORE make ready or if he walked up and unzipped before the RO was there.

If it was before the RO was there, technically it is a DQ if he was not within 2 yards of the backstop or sideberm and following all the other elements of 5.2.1.7.

 

Did the RO give make ready BEFORE he unzipped it?

NOTE the definition of CASED as covered in 5.2.1.8:

To be considered cased, the PCC must be in a case or sleeve which covers from the muzzle past the trigger guard and prevents access to or manipulation of the trigger.

 

In this example- I believe he actually UNCASED it per 5.2.1.8 as it was all the way down.

UNCASING is where the DQ is called in this situation.

 

 

So if he didn't wait for the make ready and just walked up to the start area and laid it down and unzipped and was not withing 2 yards of the backstop/sideberm.-- rule 5.2.1.7 applies with a DQ of 10.5.19

This situation says it was pointing downrange at the backstop, but did not give a distance. that is important.

THE RULE in question:

5.2.1.7 Carbines must be cased/uncased or removed/replaced on a cart with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction directly into and within 2 yards of a side berm or backstop. PCCs can also be cased/uncased or removed/replaced on a cart under the direct supervision of a range officer with muzzle pointing at the backstop. Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing or removing/replacing on a cart will result in a DQ per 10.5.19. See below

 

As another commented, ask him to show the rule..

This is a rather technical DQ situation.. was he truly in a DQ situation? I am not sure....

what I AM SURE OF-- if he does that at a level 2 or higher- his chances of getting a warning and NOT a DQ is slim...

That lesson needs to be learned....

 

10.5.19 Failing to point the muzzle of a PCC at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing or removing/replacing on a conveyance or sweeping any

person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing or removing from/placing on conveyances only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. The berm/backstop is not required while removing/returning a properly flagged PCC from/to a vehicle providing all other safety rules are followed.

 

 

 

 

[broadside72]

@RadarTech OP's post says "at make ready", but your details are appreciated. Then you have vertically stored uncased carbines that are flagged and stored in a conveyance that are not pointed at a berm/backstop when you removing from/placing on it... That situation is not covered in this rule and can be misinterpreted as well. Always gaps in the rules.

[RadarTech]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

@RadarTech OP's post says "at make ready", but your details are appreciated. Then you have vertically stored uncased carbines that are flagged and stored in a conveyance that are not pointed at a berm/backstop when you removing from/placing on it... That situation is not covered in this rule and can be misinterpreted as well. Always gaps in the rules.

 

At Area 8 this past year we covered that under RM guidance.. if it is in a cart and being retrieved from a cart or buggy for a competitor to start the course of fire in an area where the car or buggy can't be within 6 feet of the berm or backstop we used the line at the end of the 10.5.19

 

The berm/backstop is not required while removing/returning a properly flagged PCC from/to a vehicle providing all other safety rules are followed.

 

Vehicle - interpreted as a car, golf cart, or buggy.

 

The previous sentence also says

 

All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer.

 

notice the OR..

 

 

 

 

[07yzryder]

it was in a fully enclosed zippered soft case. Laid on the ground muzzle clearly down range (tapered case). I do have the app and have downloaded the rules. Still new to the game so i'm learning.

[IVC]

Got response from Troy - he says they are updating the modules because they are in error. 

[MemphisMechanic]

5 hours ago, 07yzryder said:

it was in a fully enclosed zippered soft case. Laid on the ground muzzle clearly down range (tapered case). I do have the app and have downloaded the rules. Still new to the game so i'm learning.

At make ready you’re permitted to withdraw a handgun from a holster and load it, or to do the equivalent of that with a PCC which is... to uncase it and begin to load it.

When I shoot, I bring a little pop-up wagon with a two-gun rack mounted in it. This makes it easy:

 

Roll the wagon right up behind the starting position. It’s right there to grab, unflag, and load at “make ready.” You also don’t have to walk all the way back to the rear of the bay to stow the gun when you’ve finished.

 

I played in PCC a bit, but I usually shoot CO or Production. I started leaving the rifle rack on the wagon so that squadmates who are otherwise humping a rifle to the line in a bag are able to use it and speed the squad up.

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[IVC]

11 hours ago, mchapman said:

If uncased and flagged, laying on a staging area table muzzle MUST point to berm.

So, the area within 2 yards of the berm is essentially an "implied staging area" - it has the same rules as staging area, but no structures where the guns could be left unattended and it wouldn't be legal to leave guns there in the first place. The actual staging area consists of a physical structure that doesn't have the 2 yard requirement, but is constructed such that guns can be cased, uncased and left unattended while pointing in the safe direction, hence staging areas tend to be close to the berm anyways. Correct? 

[mchapman]

24 minutes ago, IVC said:

So, the area within 2 yards of the berm is essentially an "implied staging area" - it has the same rules as staging area, but no structures where the guns could be left unattended and it wouldn't be legal to leave guns there in the first place. The actual staging area consists of a physical structure that doesn't have the 2 yard requirement, but is constructed such that guns can be cased, uncased and left unattended while pointing in the safe direction, hence staging areas tend to be close to the berm anyways. Correct? 

Yes that would be correct. The cart or buggy is considered a physical structure  if you will, to leave a  rifle that is in a safe condition, unattended. But the buggy or structure should be within the 6 feet of berm  to case or uncase the rifle to go to the start position or if done shooting a stage to put up the gun

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by mchapman

[Thomas H]

12 hours ago, IVC said:

Got response from Troy - he says they are updating the modules because they are in error. 

 

Yeah, a number of weeks ago I emailed him about that, and he forwarded it to the people in charge of the online course.  It just takes awhile to update.  (I already had my SC endorsement, but since I was telling a bunch of my local folks to take the online course, I decided to go through it myself.)

 

Interestingly enough, a later module clearly states and discussed that staging areas ARE legal in SC, and how exactly they should be handled. The fix is simply to remove the one or two comments and the slide in the earlier module, because a later module explains it well.