9mm case mouth peening after wet tumbling

[looking4reloadingdeals]

So I’ve posted a couple of times about having problems with my coated 9mm rounds. I’m using .357” Brazos 147gr RN bullets. I recently discovered my problems were from case peening from wet tumbling. So, I’m currently debuting the cases I have already wet tumbled, but this is a complete and utter PIA. So now I’m looking for a solution to not have this problem in the future and figure out how to avoid this in the future.

 

I also have a dry tumbler, but prefer wet tumbling because the cases come out cleaner. I usually wet tumbled for about 2-3 hours. Would less time make a difference? Less cases per batch, or more so they don’t have as much room to collide? I usually load my Frankfort tumbler 2/3 of the way full of cases.

 

Any help is appreciated

 

 

 

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[GrumpyOne]

Are you using SS media when wet tumbling? Or just the cases themselves? 

 

Also, having super shiny clean cases is not necessary. In fact, having some soot (burnt powder residue) inside the case will aid in reloading. I say to not wet tumble for quite as long...but I dry tumble...

[looking4reloadingdeals]

I started doing just the cases because I hate separating the pins out. And I know super shiny cases don’t make any difference in reloading, I just like that they don’t have walnut media residue on the cases and I know they’re totally clean. Also helps with the primer pockets, which I know also isn’t a big deal for pistol brass as I only dry tumbled for the first couple of years. I just prefer to wet tumble now that I have the ability.

Is wet tumbling the issue? I started loading coated bets around the same time I started tumbling.


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[belus]

Is your wet tumbler rotary like a ball mill?


If so, under filling it might be more violent on the cases.  I'd add more stainless steel media or at least a higher volume of cases. I don't wet tumble myself (yet), but I suspect it might be caused by cases falling on each other.

[looking4reloadingdeals]

Is your wet tumbler rotary like a ball mill?


If so, under filling it might be more violent on the cases.  I'd add more stainless steel media or at least a higher volume of cases. I don't wet tumble myself (yet), but I suspect it might be caused by cases falling on each other.

Yes, it is a Frankfort Arsenal rotary tumbler. Maybe I’ll try filling it up further and seeing if that helps. I just don’t don’t want to overfill it. It says it can handle up to 30 lbs between cases, media (which I’m not currently using), and water. No idea where I’m at, but maybe I should try a little more cases and see what happens. The only problem would be what I’m doing now fills up my food dehydrator 100% which is what I use to dry my cases so that would be the only problem really.


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[m700]

I added a second dehydrator.

I'm cleaning on a big dog and my drum is 15 lbs of ss pins then 2000 9mm cases. And don't have issues. The volume brings me to about the same 2/3 without the pins I'd think you could put a little more in, but if you fill too much there may not be enough movement and cases won't get clean.

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[m700]

Are you sizing and belling after the bath? Or before?

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[mstewart]

How much water are you putting in your tumbler?

I have the same tumbler use 1 gallon of water, 5 lb. ss pins and 400-500 9mm cases along with Armor-all and Lemi Fresh. Do not have this problem.

[looking4reloadingdeals]

Are you sizing and belling after the bath? Or before?

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Sizing is done before to remove the primers, then belling is done on the 650 while loading. I know it’s not the belling process that’s causing it, when I take cases that haven’t been belled there is a burr on the outside of the case


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[looking4reloadingdeals]

How much water are you putting in your tumbler?
I have the same tumbler use 1 gallon of water, 5 lb. ss pins and 400-500 9mm cases along with Armor-all and Lemi Fresh. Do not have this problem.

I fill brass 2/3 way, then water goes all the way to the bottom edge of the top of the tumbler, shown below.



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[Shorty4087]

Have you tried reducing the amount of brass to 400-500 like a number of us are doing? I’m also using 1 - gal of water with Southern Shine Media chips and a cap of Brass Juice. Results are both consistent and excellent!!!

[looking4reloadingdeals]

No I haven’t, I honestly didn’t realize I was having this problem until a night or two ago. I will try that next time if you think that would help. So you don’t just fill the tumbler all the way up? You have a gallon jug you use to fill it up?


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[Shorty4087]

I forgot to add that I’m only tumbling for 1-1.5 hrs 

[looking4reloadingdeals]

Cool thanks, I’ll try less brass and a shorter time and see if that helps.


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[mstewart]

I think it is way too much brass and not enough water. The weight of the cases hitting each other is what is causing the damage.  The pins do a super job of cleaning the inside of the brass and primer pickets. I use a Frankford Arsenal media separator to remove the pins.  I fill it with water and it rinses the soap off of the brass and floats the pins out of the cases. Then I just dump the water out of separator into a big funnel with a screen in it to catch the media and empty the funnel back into the tumbler for the next batch.  Any remaining in the funnel and separator are retrieved with a magnet. 

I tumble in the soap/water mixture for 3 hours while I do something else.  Probably longer than I need but they always come out better than new.  Primers are remove before washing, so pockets are completely clean.  Finished brass is dumped from media separator into a pillow case and shook to remove excess water.  Brass then goes in a food dehydrator and dried. Never an issue with pins in brass or wet brass.  40 SW brass is lubed and sized.  9MM brass is ready for to reload.  I don't size while removing primers because any dirt on cases will scratch the case.

  I am retired so I have the time to do the above steps also gives me several chances to inspect brass before using. 

I also have OCD :-).

[GMP]

I use this tumbler,  about half full each load,  just covered with brass juice mix.  If I look close at brass that was tumbled for 2 hr., I can see some slight peening.  Does it cause a problem?  No.  I deprime only first for better cleaning,  but do not resize.  First op with clean brass on the progressive is resize only, next expand.  I think this is why my process works and may solve your problem.  The expansion plug is two stage with an edge at the larger dia that cuts across the inner edge of the case mouth, effectively deburring it.  At no time do I see coating damage.  I do see very fine brass debris almost powder when I clean the die after a run.  Deburring cases would make me nuts, the expander plugs are $6.50  and fit in a cheap Lee universal flaring die.

[echotango]

I wet tumble with ~1600 9mm cases, NO pins and for about 1hr 15min.  Rinse and dry on a towell in the sun.  Done. I will never use pics again.  I also started using brass juice it is works great. 

Edited November 29, 2019 by echotango

[MikeyScuba]

I'm unsure how you are having issues.  I overtumble like crazy.

 

I first tumble to clean with soap and lemi 7/8's full of 9mm brass for 1hr.

 

I then decap&size

 

I then tumble with pins and brass juice for 2.5 hrs 2/3's full of brass.

 

Yes it's overkill but I'm not having fits and convulsions using the pins and the brass is like new. So clean.  So shiny.

 

No problem loading them with .358 plated loads.  And I'm up to 10 loadings on my blazer brass.

 

What can I say, I like my brass shiny.

Edited November 29, 2019 by MikeyScuba
spelling

[looking4reloadingdeals]

Thanks Mikey, I also like my brass shiny. While it may not help, it certainly doesn’t hurt lol.

Not sure why I’m having problems either. I was getting it on my 223 as well. I just seem to be really good at struggling through crap like this all the time


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[78Staff]

I ran into a similar issue with rifle cases - the necks were peening over, changing my neck tension numbers.  In my case I was pre-processing on the 1050 - depriming, swaging, size/trim, and setting neck diameter/tension with an M die.  Solution was to not run them as long - the longer you tumble the more peening you get.  Also moved the M die to the loading toolhead vs. the prep toolhead to make sure neck tension was where I wanted it in the final process.

 

But, honestly I haven't touched my Fart in months...  I've pretty much gone back to dry media tumbling for rifle and pistol.  Bling is cool, but dry media is simpler, less hassle really esp for bulk ammo.  I might break it out again for some precision rifle rounds though.

[looking4reloadingdeals]

I ran into a similar issue with rifle cases - the necks were peening over, changing my neck tension numbers.  In my case I was pre-processing on the 1050 - depriming, swaging, size/trim, and setting neck diameter/tension with an M die.  Solution was to not run them as long - the longer you tumble the more peening you get.  Also moved the M die to the loading toolhead vs. the prep toolhead to make sure neck tension was where I wanted it in the final process.
 
But, honestly I haven't touched my Fart in months...  I've pretty much gone back to dry media tumbling for rifle and pistol.  Bling is cool, but dry media is simpler, less hassle really esp for bulk ammo.  I might break it out again for some precision rifle rounds though.

I don’t mind it fit the rifle stuff because I just resize and trim, then toss them in the tumbler, then chamfer and debur after tumbling. I didn’t debur any pistol brass until I realized I was having a problem with it and like to go back to not deburing it. Doing that to pistol brass is a pia cause there isn’t much case to hold onto


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[bigedp51]

Wet tumbling will cause case mouth peening simply because the cases are hitting the case mouth. On rifles cases I trim and deburr after every wet tumbling.

On my pistol cases I went to a sonic cleaner to solve the peening problem. If you insist on wet tumbling then "less is more" meaning less cases in the tumbler for less time.

 

NOTE, I have a large RCBS media separator and even tumbling the cases in the media seperator can dent the case mouths.

 

Below a .44 Special case that was wet tumbled for one hour. And when I expanded the cases I would have brass shavings inside the case and sticking to the expander.

To solve this problem I bought a cheap $80.00 sonic cleaner that is a clone of the  Lyman Turbo Sonic 2500 Ultrasonic Case Cleaner at Amazon.

NOTE,  if you use "HOT" tap water to fill the sonic cleaner it will get up to the proper temp faster and less work for the heating unit. Meaning using cold tap water my unit had to run through four cleaning cycles before the water came up to cleaning temp. (heater light goes off)

 

 

 

Below Winchester .243 cases, the case on the left I fell asleep and the cases tumbled for over six hours. The case on the right is right out of the Winchester bag and shows the effect of factory tumbling.

 

[Drillbit]

1 hour ago, looking4reloadingdeals said:

"I don’t mind it fit the rifle stuff because I just resize and trim, then toss them in the tumbler, then chamfer and debur after tumbling. I didn’t debur any pistol brass until I realized I was having a problem with it and like to go back to not deburing it. Doing that to pistol brass is a pia cause there isn’t much case to hold onto".

 

I also have the Franklin tumbler , and after some trial and error I ended up weighing my brass for each load. 5lbs is what I settled on.  

 

Rifle or pistol doesn't matter, that amount  seems to be the most efficient. I add the brass, pins, and fill to the same water line you do, then add the dawn dish soap and let it go for 1 hour. I've never seen much if any difference in going longer.  Not enough water I believe is the biggest cause of "case mouth peening".

  Also, are seating and crimping at the same time?

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Edited November 29, 2019 by Drillbit

[Yondering]

On 11/29/2019 at 1:27 PM, 78Staff said:

But, honestly I haven't touched my Fart in months...  I've pretty much gone back to dry media tumbling for rifle and pistol.  Bling is cool, but dry media is simpler, less hassle really esp for bulk ammo.  I might break it out again for some precision rifle rounds though.

 

Seems like this is the obvious and easy solution for the OP. Don't get too hung up on "shiny and clean", especially inside the case; it doesn't make your ammo better, and can cause more problems. I like my ammo to look good too, but that has nothing to do with inside the case, and a layer of carbon in there is beneficial to sizing and neck tension/pull consistency.

[Phlier]

I apologize if this advice has already been posted, as I didn't take the time to read the whole thread.

 

I also use the Frankford Arsenal Rotary Tumbler. My case peening problem was solved by filling the tumbler up with more water. Gradually increase the amount of water in each batch, until you finally reach the point that the cases are no longer getting peened.

 

I also don't see the need to run the thing any longer than 1.5 hours.