PCC length of pull

[tomv]

For Steel Challenge I shoot my PCC with about the same stance as I use for my pistols. I'm right handed so the toe of my right foot is a little in front of the heel of my left. The butt of the gun is toward the center of my chest. As a result of this I'm running about a 12" LOP. Almost everyone I hand my gun to comments that the LOP is too short for them.

 

I'm curious to know how others stand and the geometry of their guns. Also would like comments on my approach.

 

 

[Shootymacshootface]

Strong side foot about even with weak side heel (give or take). Whatever lop gets the sights lined up with your eye without any effort whatsoever. 

[Posvar]

I have mega long arms and stand in a similar manner but require as long of a LOP as possible. 

[toothandnail]

I vary mine from fully closed, to fully extended, depending on the stage/target array.

[tomv]

29 minutes ago, toothandnail said:

I vary mine from fully closed, to fully extended, depending on the stage/target array.

 

That soundes like aq good strategy, however I shoot in NY where adjustable stocks are no bueno.

 

[Les Snyder]

both my PCC and 5.56 have Viet Nam era A1 fixed stocks, with rounded butt pads...

[ck1]

LOP is something I wonder about and have been playing with too...

 

When I first started shooting PCC I was running a super long LOP (probably ridiculously long honestly, like 15"+ because an MPX w/ adapter and tube will let you go really long and I was coming from an AR9-pattern PCC for a couple months running the stock all the way out), figured if it was a "rifle" I should run it as "rifle-ish" as possible, as I've almost always run the stock all the way out on my AR's. I'm not really sure if the long LOP was better shooting-wise (other than feeling super solid), but I DO know it made transitions to weak-side or bumping shoulders a PIA, and getting behind the optic weak-side with the other eye kind of a nightmare. Also, mounting the gun took maybe more “work” than what was ideal, partly because I was trying to mimic mounting an AR w/ a LPVO 1-6 (and it’s limited eye-relief) that’s set-up for a happy-medium between up close and getting taken out to 300-400+ yards.

 

Fast-forward to now, and lately, after observing and getting info off of other shooters far further along than me, I've settled on a much shorter for me (but not really short) 13.25”-13.5” LOP measured middle-of-trigger to end-of-stock-butt-plate, just because I think I was missing the importance of getting a good mount every single time, where the dot just naturally lands right in front of you ready for "bang". I mean that's our "draw" in PCC, and it's huge to get that dialed. Plus, it's far easier to get behind the gun/optic weak-side with the shorter LOP. I possibly might end up going 1 notch longer at some point as I experiment, but I doubt I'd go longer than that, because I'd be compromising a good all-around gun-fit. I think there’s a tipping point usually between a notch where the gun-feel/fit goes from “quick handling” to starting to get “unwieldy”.

For reference: I’m 6’2” and a bigger guy, for arms, I buy dress shirts that are 34/35 but opt for 36/37 when I can.

 

That said, "gun-fitment" is really the thing... different body-types, different grips/stocks/handguards will yield different results. There's a podcast out there from not too long ago where Maxamundi was talking about the importance of getting a good gun-fit that I thought was really insightful... IIRC, Max said something to the effect of "Don't worry about the old adage of the stock coming to the crease in your arm..." Around 01:01:00  https://americanwarriorshow.libsyn.com/secrets-of-the-pcc-pistol-caliber-carbine-phenom-maxumundi-max-leograndis

Edit: IMHO, I do think what grip you prefer has a lot to do with finding your “natural” LOP: personally I prefer grips with a shallower more straight/vertical grip angle (I like the BCM MOD3 grip) because it just feels better on my wrist and think that leads me to maybe going a bit shorter on my LOP... if I were running a more angled A2-style grip I’d probably lean towards going a bit longer...

Edited November 17, 2019 by ck1

[Hihellosup]

If your wrist is comfortable, then you don't need a longer LOP. That's really all it's for - it just changes your wrist angle.

 

A shorter gun swings faster, so I'd say run as short a stock as you can comfortably grip the gun. On the opposite side of that, some people feel that a longer stock reduces dot bounce, and more importantly balances the gun better. Pick whichever you value, but I feel that transition speed is more important.

 

You can also replace the pistol grip with one that has a more vertical angle to make shorter LOP's more comfortable. A2 angle grips almost force you to run a longer LOP than I'd say you need.

[SergioSF]

I prefer mine on the shorter side too - for more maneuverability around walls, barrels, etc. 
I agree with the wrist angle thing - I like the B5 Systems grip - It's pretty steep and vertical, and fat.
Can anyone vouch for an even steeper, more vertical pistol grip? Is the Reptilia steeper?

 

[Archangelgt]

Possibly Umbrella Corp

 

 

[mrd]

AFAIK, B5 and Umbrella corp is the same grip with different names. 

 

I tried the B5 but settled on Magpul MOE-K2 grip. The ergonomics of K2 fit my hand better, personal preference. It is quite straight at 17 degrees.

 

B5 is like 2 degrees straighter than K2 and probably at 15 degrees (not specified by them from what I can find). Between K2 and B5, the difference in angle is not noticable, but the B5 is a bigger grip, too big for me. Even though I think I'd prefer an even straighter grip angle than the K2, I haven't found anyting better for me yet. 

 

I run my stock (MOE-SL Carbine) one notch from fully collapsed. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by mrd
added info

[MemphisMechanic]

I run it short and mount the butt on my pec almost directly below the dominant eye, and shoot with the shoulders square to the target.

 

The more you blade your torso off to the side, and the further out toward the shoulder pocket you mount the stock... the longer the stock needs to be in order to accommodate the same shooter.

[tomv]

I just installede a Battle Arms Development stock on my AR .22. (pictures to follow) I opted for the rifle length and found that it resulted in a 12.5" LOP. Not bad, but the mid length stock is 1" shorter. I ordered one of those  to try and will exchange one of them for the length I like better. I'll end up with two of these of the right length for me. One on my 9mm AR and one on the .22.

[tomv]

Here is the .22. 4# 4 oz with Battle Arms stock

[tomv]

I have a 15 degree grip on its way and a riser for the Holosun.

 

[SergioSF]

7 hours ago, tomv said:

I have a 15 degree grip on its way and a riser for the Holosun.

 

 

Which grip?

[tomv]

It's the one made by Magpul. It arrived today and I like it. As noted earlier in this string, the more vertical grip changes the feel of the gun with a given LOP. Based on this, I believe I will like the shorter stock I ordered with this grip.

[tomv]

Here's the gun with the 15 degree grip.

[mrd]

tomv, that doesn't look like any magpul grip i can find in their catalog. Can you double check what it is exactly? It looks nice and I'd be interested to buy and try. 

https://www.magpul.com/firearms-accessories/grips/see-all

[tomv]

 

Here's the link to the grip on Optics Planet:

 

https://www.opticsplanet.com/hog-13100-ar15-15d-vertical-grip-blk.html

[ck1]

For reference: here’s how steep the BCM MOD 3 grip is, and it’s fatter than most grips out there too... I wonder if the B5/Umbrella grip is fatter, because then I might want to try one?

 

Also, tend to agree with MemphisMechanic and SergioSF that shorter vs maybe too long is better in that for most of us “shouldering” means mounting more on our chest than strictly on our shoulder, and transition speed matters maybe more just than pure stability... if you’ve got a good gun-fit you’re getting 4 points of contact vs a pistol w/ 2, even running shorter than what might be ideal for long range stability, you still get the mechanical advantage.

 

On 11/18/2019 at 10:23 PM, SergioSF said:

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by ck1

[SergioSF]

1 hour ago, ck1 said:

For reference: here’s how steep the BCM MOD 3 grip is, and it’s fatter than most grips out there too... I wonder if the B5/Umbrella grip is fatter, because then I might want to try one?

 

I don't like how the BCM is too skinny at the top. 

The B5 is more consistently fat from top to bottom. It's a palm-filling grip and feels great in the hand, and comfy for the wrist.

I just measured it and it's 2.5mm fatter than a Magpul K2.
In addition, I wrap it with grip tape. This thing is glued to me, feels ultra secure and not going anywhere. 

 

 

 

[Ner]

and here's i am..using 2 pairs of gloves.. one on another   lol

[ck1]

On 11/20/2019 at 4:47 PM, SergioSF said:

 

I don't like how the BCM is too skinny at the top. 

The B5 is more consistently fat from top to bottom. It's a palm-filling grip and feels great in the hand, and comfy for the wrist.

I just measured it and it's 2.5mm fatter than a Magpul K2.
In addition, I wrap it with grip tape. This thing is glued to me, feels ultra secure and not going anywhere. 

 

 

 

Thanks for the info about the B5 grip, probably going to have to try one... IMHO think fatter is better for larger hands for trigger-finger placement. In my case, I’m just not sure about how the beaver tail meets up with the receiver, IIRC the Magpul K2 felt strange while the BCM seemed more natural... As an aside, I tried a Hiperfire grip and it’s monstrous, has to be one of, if not the fattest out there and trigger-wise it was awesome if you’ve got larger mitts, but the beaver tail fit was wonky too... maybe I didn’t give the different beaver tail shapes an honest chance...

 

 

 

 

[waktasz]

Two clicks out on my Magpul stock. I run a more vertical pistol grip to make it more comfortable