Fault Line Legal?

[pjb45]

At a match quite a while ago, the MD said touching the dirt was a penalty per shot fired.  He said the depth requirement was met on the inside of the fault line.

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

My opinion is no not legal. If I received a penalty I would arb it, If I were the stage RO I would fix it, If I were the MD I would get it fixed.

There is dirt over the top of the fault line and the fault line is part of the shooting area so there is no defined edge to the legal shooting area.

 

[Flatland Shooter]

2.2.1.1 Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines should be constructed of wooden boards or other suitable material, must be fixed firmly in place, and provide both physical and visual references to competitors. For hard ground surfaces clear of debris, 0.75-inch material is the minimum allowable size. On other range surfaces, such as covered with turf, sand, gravel, wood chips or similar, thicker material which rises at least 1.5 inches above the surface is recommended.

 

The rear fault line does not appear to be in compliance.  Did anyone actually have a foot fault on this stage?

[Nathanb]

I would say not legal because it’s not meeting thickness on all sides. 

[RadarTech]

Is that MD an RO? Maybe bring this to the attention of the SC or AD to provide guidance... or a local RM OR RMI..

[RJH]

I aint' dragging out the rule book, but the rule that Flatland quoted says recommended not mandatory, so i lean towards legal, though could be improved upon

[RadarTech]

I aint' dragging out the rule book, but the rule that Flatland quoted says recommended not mandatory, so i lean towards legal, though could be improved upon

The height of 1.5 inches is recommended but the first part of the rule is what is key here...


Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines should be constructed of wooden boards or other suitable material, must be fixed firmly in place, and provide both physical and visual references to competitors.

Must be fixed.... and provide ....

The reason for the height is to have a reference of where the fault line is.. in this image there is no clear reference to where that fail line ends...

If I was on an ARB committee I’d remove the procedurals... as an RM— tell the MD to fix it...

[RJH]

1 minute ago, RadarTech said:

 

The height of 1.5 inches is recommended but the first part of the rule is what is key here...


Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines should be constructed of wooden boards or other suitable material, must be fixed firmly in place, and provide both physical and visual references to competitors.

Must be fixed.... and provide ....

The reason for the height is to have a reference of where the fault line is.. in this image there is no clear reference to where that fail line ends...

If I was on an ARB committee I’d remove the procedurals... as an RM— tell the MD to fix it...

 

It sure looks fixed in place, I can see the box, and i can guarantee i would be able to feel the inside and top inner edge of that box with my feet, so...

[davsco]

it's the OUTSIDE not the inside of the box, where the clearance needs to be (well, maybe, both, but certainly the outside).  i woulda just had the RO or MD scrape away the dirt on the outside of the fault line so one could stand on it without faulting. 

[elguapo]

It's a chickens**t call that wouldn't even need to be made if someone had spent 5 minutes with a shovel, pick, or hoe.

[NickBlasta]

The justification I've seen used against assigning foot faults in these situations by RMs is that it no longer provides the physical reference indicated by the rule. The shooter can no longer physically feel where the shooting area ends. Though there is a rise to the inside of the fault line, the shooting area actually ends on the far side of the fault line ie, the buried part.

[IVC]

9 hours ago, Flatland Shooter said:

2.2.1.1 Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines should be constructed of wooden boards or other suitable material, must be fixed firmly in place, and provide both physical and visual references to competitors. For hard ground surfaces clear of debris, 0.75-inch material is the minimum allowable size.

The box in question does use "0.75-inch material." There is no requirement in the rule 2.2.1.1 to have the same clearance on the other side of the line. In fact, the requirement is on the type of material used, not even on the clearance. If the rule stipulated clearance, any small bump or pebble that leans against the plank would render it illegal. Also, there is no requirement on any specific *width* of the line, so dirt leaning against the outside of the plank is not addressed by rule 2.2.1.1.

 

The very next rule 2.2.1.2 talks about objects touching fault lines:

 

2.2.1.2 A 'shooting area' is defined as a surface inside shooting boxes, fault lines, walls, or any other barrier. Shooting boxes and fault lines must be fixed to the surface and may not be less than the minimum height required by rule 2.2.1.1. Shooting boxes and fault lines are considered to be part of the shooting area. Objects outside the shooting area, regardless of whether they contact the shooting box, fault lines, walls, or any other barrier, are not part of the shooting area, except as specified in 10.2.1.

 

The dirt touching the fault line is NOT part of the shooting area so touching the dirt is indeed a procedural. Should it be one per shot? I doubt it since I don't see any competitive advantage. This is something for the RM to decide. 

 

Overall, the fault line is well defined and shooters can easily stay within the shooting area. Stepping on the line itself is where it gets tricky, but there is no requirement that stepping on the line should be feasible. Consider a wall that might be next to the fault line barely not touching it so that the new rules about not being part of the shooting area apply - you might not be able to step on the line without touching the wall and that's both a procedural and not a problem. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by IVC

[Joe4d]

.2.1.2 A 'shooting area' is defined as a surface inside shooting boxes

Shooting boxes and fault lines are considered to be part of the shooting area

Those two statements are night and day contradictory

 

[teros135]

39 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

.2.1.2 A 'shooting area' is defined as a surface inside shooting boxes

Shooting boxes and fault lines are considered to be part of the shooting area

Those two statements are night and day contradictory

 

 

Not a contradiction at all.  The second statement clarifies the parameters of the first, so we'll be clear what constitutes the "shooting area". 

[Joe4d]

so if I balance something on the edge of a cardboard box its "Inside" the box ? yeh dont think so..  The way the rule has been applied the first sentence clarifies nothing and should be eliminated.

[broadside72]

Since you are allowed to stand on and hang over the fault lines as long as you are not touching the ground, not having the physical and visual reference on the OUTSIDE of the fault line makes it not legal in my opinion. 

[Sarge]

Years ago I got a foot fault call reversed at an Area match down south. The gravel had built up over the course of the day and was basically a board buried in gravel. You could barely see, let alone feel the fault line. The RM made the crew remove the gravel ON BOTH SIDES before continuing on.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Sarge

[elguapo]

4 hours ago, teros135 said:

Not a contradiction at all.  The second statement clarifies the parameters of the first, so we'll be clear what constitutes the "shooting area". 

 

It's one of the most poorly written definitions I've ever seen.

 

The inside of the shooting box cannot be the outer edge of the fault lines since fault lines and shooting boxes are listed separately in the same sentence.  That means they are two distinct objects and fault lines have dimensions (volume).

[IVC]

2 hours ago, broadside72 said:

Since you are allowed to stand on and hang over the fault lines as long as you are not touching the ground, not having the physical and visual reference on the OUTSIDE of the fault line makes it not legal in my opinion. 

True on the first part, but there is nothing in the rules about the outside of the fault lines. 

 

In this case, do you have a visual and physical barrier to the shooting area? Yes. Is it constructed with the material of the specified height? Yes. Can you shoot standing on the fault line while not touching anything outside? Yes (tippy-toe). Is there a requirement that you can step on the fault line and are guaranteed not to fault it by touching anything on the outside? No. 

[IVC]

Just to clarify - I'm not arguing that this is a loophole or a technicality that makes it legal, I'm arguing that this is completely within the "spirit" of what should normally be considered legal. The dirt on the outside is off limits and there is a well-defined boundary on the inside. Nobody wedging their foot against the fault line will get a procedural. 

[DKorn]

The entire fault line is inside the shooting area. 
 

If part of the fault line is covered, how can the shooter or the RO tell what is standing on the fault line versus touching the ground outside the fault line?

 

If the dirt is built up next to, but not covering, the fault line, then you can still tell the difference between the fault line and the ground outside it, so you could call a foot fault, but it’s kind of a BS call because there’s no way for the shooter to tell that they are touching outside while they are doing what would otherwise be legal (standing on the fault line).

 

Regardless, it’s completely avoidable with proper stage management. In between squads, the RO crew should be checking the stage for any issues, including stuff like this, and fixing anything they find. If it’s a local match with traveling ROs, the ROs should check the stage before the squad shoots it. This kind of issue should never come up because it’s easy enough to prevent. 

[NickBlasta]

21 minutes ago, IVC said:

Just to clarify - I'm not arguing that this is a loophole or a technicality that makes it legal, I'm arguing that this is completely within the "spirit" of what should normally be considered legal. The dirt on the outside is off limits and there is a well-defined boundary on the inside. Nobody wedging their foot against the fault line will get a procedural. 

 

It's not well defined because the entirety of the fault line is the boundary and half of it is covered by dirt. It would be equally as arbitrary to say "it's okay because if you don't touch the fault line at all you won't get a procedural".

[broadside72]

42 minutes ago, IVC said:

True on the first part, but there is nothing in the rules about the outside of the fault lines. 

 

In this case, do you have a visual and physical barrier to the shooting area? Yes. Is it constructed with the material of the specified height? Yes. Can you shoot standing on the fault line while not touching anything outside? Yes (tippy-toe). Is there a requirement that you can step on the fault line and are guaranteed not to fault it by touching anything on the outside? No. 

 

I see the other way since the "Shooting boxes and fault lines are considered to be part of the shooting area.", thus the entirety of the fault line is part of the shooting area. Also, the shooting box and fault line (not the "shooting area") MUST provide physical and visual reference to the the shooter. If you have no reference to the complete fault line or shooting box, e.g. the outer edge covered by dirt, then it is not legal. 

[RJH]

There is definitely 100 percent visual and physical references in the picture.  If you touch the inside of the box you are guaranteed to be inside the faultline, if you stand on top of the box you might just touch a part of the ground outside of the faultline, just like always

[mchapman]

Would it make any difference if the WSB said engage all targets from within the shooting area? Asking for a friend. LOL