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Never Reloaded. Have Some Questions.


XrayDoc88

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Thanks so much for everyone's input.  I already have learned a lot and feel more capable of making my first powder and bullet purchases without screwing up.  superdude, I wil check all of your links.  I love that kind of detail.  We actually belong to two different ranges, one indoor and one outdoor.  We shoot a lot.  I'm certain I'll upgrade to a progressive once I fully understand what I'm doing.

 

This may be an advanced question or silly concern.  I've read that the most accurate reloads tend to occur when the powder level reaches the bullet base or is even slightly compressed by the bullet.  Is this something that people even think about when reloading?  Is that why the published COL will not be the same for all bullets?  The charts seem to always list the same COL for the same bullet, even though the powders are all different.  I would think that the powder volumes would vary greatly because of different compositions and different grain weights.  Does anyone care if their case is "topped off" with powder or do you just pay attention to your actual shooting results?

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4 minutes ago, XrayDoc88 said:

 

 

This may be an advanced question or silly concern.  I've read that the most accurate reloads tend to occur when the powder level reaches the bullet base or is even slightly compressed by the bullet. NOT necessarily true. I've never heard that.   Is this something that people even think about when reloading?  Is that why the published COL will not be the same for all bullets?  No. The charts seem to always list the same COL for the same bullet, even though the powders are all different.  I would think that the powder volumes would vary greatly because of different compositions and different grain weights.  Does anyone care if their case is "topped off" with powder or do you just pay attention to your actual shooting results?  Yup.

 

Here's how you pick the most accurate load:  The one that produces the smallest group. Nothing else matters. Ignore load density. Ignore velocity extreme spread. Ignore . . . everything, except group size.  And be sure to include a reasonable number of shots in your test group. 5-shot groups are not very useful. Here's an article that tries to explain some of the issues with group round count: https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/9/25/accuracy-testing-shortcomings-of-the-five-shot-group/

 

Not all bullets are equally accurate. Not all powder produce the same accuracy. Not all guns/barrels produce the same accuracy. One load that gun "A" likes, gun "B" might not. It takes testing to find what a gun likes.  Example: https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2019/3/23/ammo-accuracy-15-loads-in-three-different-guns/

 

That said, there are some bullets and powders that tend to produce good accuracy in many guns. I've found good accuracy with the following 9mm 147 grain bullets: Hornady XTP, Remington FMJ, RMR FMJ FP Match Winner. 

 

For budget jacketed bullets that shoot really well (in my 9mm and 38 Super Kart barrels), consider RMR's FMJ truncated cone (flat point) MatchWinner bullets. They come in a variety of weights, 115, 124, 135, 147. 

https://www.rmrbullets.com/product-category/bullets/pistol/9mm-355/

 

 

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The 115 and 125 HAP bullets are excellent. The 125 HAP is probably the most consistently accurate bullet I've fired in my guns (Kart barrels). Another bullet that produces excellent accuracy is the Zero, 115 JHP-conical.

 

http://www.rozedist.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=RZD&Product_Code=R135-A&Category_Code=ZBJ-9MM

 

I've not found a good load for the 147 JHP Zero bullet in my Kart barrels. However, other people have. Different guns = different results. 

 

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13 hours ago, sweatpants said:

In short, yes.  Published loads are not at the top end from a safety perspective, if you're concerned I would start under the published load and work up.  

Not altogether true.

 

On the four reloading manuals I've worked on, all had top loads as close to SAAMI MAP as possible without going over for the top loads.

 

Different bullets will build pressure differently, so different reloading manuals will show different data.

 

Best, as always, is to start low and work up.  The best data to begin with is that developed with the bullet you are using, if available.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, XrayDoc88 said:

superdude, do you also like the RMR JHP or just the truncated cone bullets?

 

Yes, both of their in-house 124 JHPs. They shot well in my 38 Super but I have only tried them in the Super with N105 (N105 shoots almost everything well in my Kart barrel), but they put 25 rounds under 2" at 25 yards - just like all the FMJ MatchWinners. 

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18 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:


The repeated advice not to begin reloading when ammo is cheap... is something I find amusingly shortsighted.

 

An election year is coming, and with those come historically high prices on ammo. Plan ahead... and listen to 4n2t0. ;) 

 

I could not agree more. If everyone thought the last round of shortages was bad under Obama, hold my beer.

 

The Supreme Court, supposedly leaning to the conservative side just allowed the green light to suing Remington Arms, the Federal government is embroiled in noting but insane partisan politics, and the next presidential election looks more and more like it will go anti gun. 

 

Insurance companies are dropping coverage's,  credit card companies will not work with firearms related businesses, and trouble seems to be brewing everywhere you look.

 

I am not going to get into a buying panic, (still have 8 lbs of 800X.....????) but I am picking up extra components as they come on sale. 

Be ready friends.

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I purchased carbide dies for my 9mm reloading.  I understand that I don't need to use case lube.  But would those with experience using carbide dies still recommend using case lube?

 

Also, when reloading in general, do you just use case lube for the resizing step, not expanding, not bullet seating nor bullet crimping?

 

P.S.  I just started reading the Lyman 50th edition reloading handbook.  It's getting me excited!😆

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4 minutes ago, XrayDoc88 said:

I purchased carbide dies for my 9mm reloading.  I understand that I don't need to use case lube.  But would those with experience using carbide dies still recommend using case lube?

 

Also, when reloading in general, do you just use case lube for the resizing step, not expanding, not bullet seating nor bullet crimping?

 

P.S.  I just started reading the Lyman 50th edition reloading handbook.  It's getting me excited!😆

 

I prefer to use case lube.  When you apply the lube to the case it affects every aspect of the reloading process not just resizing, regardless if you want it to or not.  

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1 minute ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@superdude good catch! I don’t know why I had CFE stuck in my head as being somewhere near N320, E3, etc when I posted.

 

For anyone new who is reading this, disregard my earlier posts when referencing the suitability of this powder. He’s entirely correct.

 

It's impossible to keep track of where all these powders are on burn rate charts, and different charts rank many of them in different places. I always take my own advice and look at actual load data (from multiple sources) for charge weights and velocities - cause I can't keep track of them either! 

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21 hours ago, Sarge said:

I don't know if I agree. Are you going to shoot much? I have loaded on a rock Chucker and it took all week to load enough to plink quite a bit on Saturday. That was 40 years ago. I didn't reload again until 2008 and went straight to a 550 based on "everybody's opinion". Sold it a year later and got a 650. I can't imagine ever going back to a single stage except for maybe some odd ball rounds. It is not hard at all to load on a 650 if you are even remotely mechanically inclined. It's just something you have to invest time into to learn the machine.

Call me crazy, but I greatly prefer the 550 to the 650.

Yes, it's simpler. Yes, it takes longer.

I've owned a 550 for years, and a 650 for almost a year to keep up with my 9mm needs. Although I spend less time in front of the bench, the 650 has taken the fun/hobby out of reloading, at least to me. 

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1 hour ago, XrayDoc88 said:

I purchased carbide dies for my 9mm reloading.  I understand that I don't need to use case lube.  But would those with experience using carbide dies still recommend using case lube?

 

I have 9mm carbide dies and didn't use case lube for a long time.  It's not required.  I finally tried some Hornady One-Shot and now the resizing is like butter.  It is really very, very effortless.  And, unlike a lot of other case lubes, the One-Shot doesn't leave a residue you have to remove if you apply it like this...... 

Spray some of it in a 1-gallon freezer bag and allow it to dry, just takes a couple minutes.  Then add your brass, seal the bag, shake & work the brass around in the bag.  Now reload. 

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1 hour ago, XrayDoc88 said:

I purchased carbide dies for my 9mm reloading.  I understand that I don't need to use case lube.  But would those with experience using carbide dies still recommend using case lube?

 

Also, when reloading in general, do you just use case lube for the resizing step, not expanding, not bullet seating nor bullet crimping?

 

P.S.  I just started reading the Lyman 50th edition reloading handbook.  It's getting me excited!😆

If using a single stage lube only needed for resizing.

  I wish die makers would stop telling people to not lube cases. Literally every person who asks this question then tries lube remains a user for life.

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Am I correct in assuming that talented reloaders NEED a chronograph to help optimize loads?  I believe that you can determine accuracy results and avoid excessive pressure loads simply by visual observation.  But without a chronograph, there's no way to know if you've reached an optimal velocity?

 

I know they're expensive, but does anyone have or recommend the Labradar?  I saw that they were on a modest sale currently.  If not worth the money, what would you recommend?

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12 minutes ago, XrayDoc88 said:

Am I correct in assuming that talented reloaders NEED a chronograph to help optimize loads?  I believe that you can determine accuracy results and avoid excessive pressure loads simply by visual observation.  But without a chronograph, there's no way to know if you've reached an optimal velocity?

 

I know they're expensive, but does anyone have or recommend the Labradar?  I saw that they were on a modest sale currently.  If not worth the money, what would you recommend?

 

Labradars work fine.  I own a Chrony and CED and they also work fine.

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4 hours ago, BJB said:

 

I have 9mm carbide dies and didn't use case lube for a long time.  It's not required.  I finally tried some Hornady One-Shot and now the resizing is like butter.  It is really very, very effortless.  And, unlike a lot of other case lubes, the One-Shot doesn't leave a residue you have to remove if you apply it like this...... 

Spray some of it in a 1-gallon freezer bag and allow it to dry, just takes a couple minutes.  Then add your brass, seal the bag, shake & work the brass around in the bag.  Now reload. 

Thanks for the tip!  Do others prefer using One-Shot over other brands of case lube?

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3 hours ago, XrayDoc88 said:

Am I correct in assuming that talented reloaders NEED a chronograph to help optimize loads?  I believe that you can determine accuracy results and avoid excessive pressure loads simply by visual observation.  But without a chronograph, there's no way to know if you've reached an optimal velocity?

 

I know they're expensive, but does anyone have or recommend the Labradar?  I saw that they were on a modest sale currently.  If not worth the money, what would you recommend?

 

A chronograph is only necessary if you want to know velocity. That information is useful to competitors for calculating power factor. It won't tell you anything about accuracy. The target does that. 

 

It's hard to define optical velocity, because we have to ask; optimal for what? Power factor? Yes, there is a velocity range we shoot for.  Accuracy? No. That said, some bullets, like wadcutter bullets are supposed to work best within a certain velocity range, or at least the folks at the Bullseye website make this claim (though there are other factors like barrel twist rate). The velocity is what your gun happens to produce with a particular bullet to make the smallest groups, and in reality, the velocity doesn't matter because the only data you need to make small groups is the details of the bullet, powder and charge weight, overall length, brass, primer - the mechanical stuff. The velocity is a byproduct, that it, it doesn't go into the formula for accuracy. Velocity just happens to be the byproduct of all the other details. It doesn't predict accuracy like the other components do - at least not for general handgun use.  

 

Some people have claimed that smaller standard deviations in velocity produce smaller groups. But that doesn't appear to be the case for the typical handgun at typical handgun velocities.    https://americanhandgunner.com/handguns/exclusive-consistent-velocity-accuracy/ 

 

A chronograph is marginally useful for assessing pressure, and probably only useful if the speeds are excessively high to give you a warning that something is amiss. But your best measure of pressure is following the data in a load manual and working your way up to the desired level of performance you want without exceeding published data. The published data is almost always based on actual lab tested pressure under controlled conditions. 

 

Of course, the exception at this forum is 9 Major. We often push charge weights way above published maximums and into the unknown, but that's a different issue.

 

I have no experience with the Labradar, but I have chronographed about 25,000+ rounds with plain old Shooting Chrony chronographs, which run around $100. I have no major complaints. They can be fussy sometimes, but all chronographs can be that way. 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, superdude said:

 

A chronograph is only necessary if you want to know velocity. That information is useful to competitors for calculating power factor. It won't tell you anything about accuracy. The target does that. 

 

It's hard to define optical velocity, because we have to ask; optimal for what? Power factor? Yes, there is a velocity range we shoot for.  Accuracy? No. That said, some bullets, like wadcutter bullets are supposed to work best within a certain velocity range, or at least the folks at the Bullseye website make this claim (though there are other factors like barrel twist rate). The velocity is what your gun happens to produce with a particular bullet to make the smallest groups, and in reality, the velocity doesn't matter because the only data you need to make small groups is the details of the bullet, powder and charge weight, overall length, brass, primer - the mechanical stuff. The velocity is a byproduct, that it, it doesn't go into the formula for accuracy. Velocity just happens to be the byproduct of all the other details. It doesn't predict accuracy like the other components do - at least not for general handgun use.  

 

Some people have claimed that smaller standard deviations in velocity produce smaller groups. But that doesn't appear to be the case for the typical handgun at typical handgun velocities.    https://americanhandgunner.com/handguns/exclusive-consistent-velocity-accuracy/ 

 

A chronograph is marginally useful for assessing pressure, and probably only useful if the speeds are excessively high to give you a warning that something is amiss. But your best measure of pressure is following the data in a load manual and working your way up to the desired level of performance you want without exceeding published data. The published data is almost always based on actual lab tested pressure under controlled conditions. 

 

Of course, the exception at this forum is 9 Major. We often push charge weights way above published maximums and into the unknown, but that's a different issue.

 

I have no experience with the Labradar, but I have chronographed about 25,000+ rounds with plain old Shooting Chrony chronographs, which run around $100. I have no major complaints. They can be fussy sometimes, but all chronographs can be that way. 

 

 

 

OK, that makes sense.  I guess if you're not trying to reach a certain power factor for competition, then any pistol velocity goal is somewhat arbitrary.  Perhaps having a rifle velocity goal  would make a little more sense if you  wanted to be certain of terminal ballistics for hunting.

 

Since I've never "worked up a load" (except in the bathroom 😆), how does it usually go without a chronograph?  I know you start at the low end of charge.  Assuming you're a good shooter, does the accuracy tend to gradually improve with extra powder grains and then get worse at some point?  Or if you have great accuracy at the lowest powder charge, do you just stop?  Exactly how do you typically determine that your load data is where you want to stop?

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7 hours ago, XrayDoc88 said:

 

Since I've never "worked up a load" (except in the bathroom 😆), how does it usually go without a chronograph?  I know you start at the low end of charge.  Assuming you're a good shooter, does the accuracy tend to gradually improve with extra powder grains and then get worse at some point?  Or if you have great accuracy at the lowest powder charge, do you just stop?  Exactly how do you typically determine that your load data is where you want to stop?

 

Some folks speak of an 'accuracy node' where the best accuracy is attained at some place between the start load and max load. I don't know how rigorously this has been examined. Looking at my 9mm and 38 Super data (all based on Ransom Rest testing), it's not clear that I could support that claim, but there are bazillions of bullet/powder combinations to try, so who knows. 

 

Here are some examples.  In the 9mm, many people report that certain 115 grain bullets show the best accuracy when pushed fast, as in at or near the max charge weight of a given powder. Specifically, 115 grain Hornady JHP bullets (HAP or XTP) and Power Pistol powder.  My results tend to agree with that. Those bullets (and Zero's 115 JHP-conical) with a full charge of powder make small groups with my Kart barrel. But that does not mean all barrels/guns will like that load. My Kart barrel also likes those bullets (tested mostly with the Zero bullets) with several different charge weights of Silhouette, and with different overall lengths. Again, lots of powders and charge weights and overall lengths to test. And testing is expensive!  They don't give bullets away! Or powder, primers, etc. 

 

As another example, my 38 Super Kart barrel loves VV N105, and it shoots lots of different bullets with a wide range of power levels into small groups. In this case, it's not very picky about charge weight or velocity. It doesn't shoot all bullet equally well, but it likes many different bullets equally well. So, there is no general rule that applies here, other than my 38 Super barrel loves N105.

 

Quote

Or if you have great accuracy at the lowest powder charge, do you just stop?  Exactly how do you typically determine that your load data is where you want to stop?

 

You get to define the criteria to determine where you stop.  It could be accuracy, recoil, power level (velocity), all or any of those and whatever else you might have in mind.

 

 

  

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"Working up a load."

Accuracy is hard to evaluate.  Unless you are an excellent shot or have a Ransom rest, the spread from fair to good to great is hard to detect. 

Velocity is impossible to gauge without a chronograph.  Either you have enough power to cycle the action or you don't. 

I went for years like that.  If my reloads fed, fired, and functioned;  and grouped as well as factory ammo, I was happy. 

 

I have a chronograph for power factor now.   I mostly use the CE and occasionally get out the CED with its greater bells and whistles.  A Labradar would be nice, but I am no longer chronographing every week or two to justify it.

 

The club had a Ransom Rest for a while.  It was interesting but we no longer have it and the loads that proved most accurate then cannot be made up now because the bullet vendors are gone. 

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