Never Reloaded. Have Some Questions.

[XrayDoc88]

I'll start with one question, see how it goes, and then work up! 

 

My wife and I carry Federal 9mm 147gr HST for self defense.  We shoot a lot of 9mm and I want to start reloading target rounds that will feel similar to our chosen carry ammo.  My current plan is to use range brass, Hodgdon CFE Pistol powder, CCI 500 primers and Zero 147gr JHP bullets.  I've been unable to find a load data chart that specifies the Zero 147gr JHP bullet however.  Is it OK to use the attached data from Hodgdon that describes another 147gr JHP bullet instead?  I would assume that the two bullets will not have the exact same length and this might affect pressures, but I don't know how else to proceed.

[sweatpants]

In short, yes.  Published loads are not at the top end from a safety perspective, if you're concerned I would start under the published load and work up.  

[Ssanders224]

If you'd be interested in using Nosler 147 jhps, shoot me a PM. 

[4n2t0]

As long as the weight and construction (lead, coated, plated, FMJ) of the bullet is similar than the data will be applicable. Always ignore the OAL listed in manuals/data and always determine your own OAL.

 

P.S. Matching your current load sounds great but I wouldn't try to replicate "defensive ammo" if I wanted "target rounds".

 

- How to determine OAL: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34225.msg189131#msg189131 (If your bullet doesn't easily collapse just use the seating die to shorten the OAL incrementally until it plunks)

 

- Plunk test:

 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by 4n2t0

[zzt]

I think your rational for starting to reload is faulty. 9mm practice ammo is cheap.  You can easily find a factory round that matches the ballistics of your HST rounds.  147gr @ 1000fps is a very, very common factory load.

[MemphisMechanic]

We can do this SO MUCH cheaper. With readily available components.

 

I’ve already done this exact same trial and error process. 147 HST is my carry load as well. Wanted to shoot ammo that recoiled just like it in a defensive training class..

 

 

Buy any 115 jacketed bullet and follow the recipe in the first line. Stagger load a mag with this ammo and 147 HST and you won’t be able to tell which round is which. 

WSF and 115gr bullets can both be found at your local shops pretty easily, too.

(CFE is much faster in burn rate than the powder you’ll find backing defensive JHPs, and would have produced noticeably softer recoil under a 147.)

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[Hi-Power Jack]

Sounds like some good advice up above.

 

Also sounds like you've been reloading for a while now ?

 

Hope you're planning on using a chrono to keep your loads where you want them.     

[4n2t0]

5 minutes ago, zzt said:

I think your rational for starting to reload is faulty. 9mm practice ammo is cheap.  You can easily find a factory round that matches the ballistics of your HST rounds.  147gr @ 1000fps is a very, very common factory load.

 

Depends on how much they shoot. Within 2 years I was able to save enough money to pay for my entire setup while only reloading 9mm.

[MemphisMechanic]

1 minute ago, 4n2t0 said:

 

Depends on how much they shoot. Within 2 years I was able to save enough money to pay for my entire setup while only reloading 9mm.

The repeated advice not to begin reloading when ammo is cheap... is something I find amusingly shortsighted.

 

An election year is coming, and with those come historically high prices on ammo. Plan ahead... and listen to 4n2t0.  

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[Hi-Power Jack]

OOPS, just noticed you have NOT been reloading ….

 

You need to buy a $100 chronograph plus the reloading equip.

 

May not be worth spending $600+ to reload 9mm, depending

on how much reloading you're doing.     

[Hi-Power Jack]

1 minute ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 Plan ahead... and listen to 4n2t0.  

 

Or, spend the $600 on stocking up 9mm ammo    

[MemphisMechanic]

We’re getting off-topic.

 

Let’s return to the man’s question, Jack.

[XrayDoc88]

No, I've never reloaded any pistol or rifle ammo ever.  I reloaded some shotgun shells with my grandpa as a kid, but I'm old now.

 

Let me clarify my wish to start reloading.  I did think a lot about the financial sense or lack of sense for reloading 9mm.  I buy 1000 rounds at a time and I really don't expect to save much money.  It's also not critical that my reloaded ammo "feels" exactly like my carry ammo.  I just thought it was a nice goal.  I assumed that using similar weight and similar construction bullets would help.  Plus, when the zombie apocalypse begins, I'd rather have lots of 147gr ammo available, reloaded or store bought.

 

My main reasons for starting to reload are: to develop a potentially valuable skill when the country collapses under liberal rule; to start a new hobby as I approach retirement; to reuse brass (I hate just throwing it away); and possibly to even learn how to develop higher accuracy rifle loads for long range shooting.

 

I've already purchased a single stage press and some 9mm dies, so I'm committed to at least start learning with 9mm reloads.

Edited November 14, 2019 by XrayDoc88

[MemphisMechanic]

Ahh! In that case...
 

If you want it for zombies (it’s for more than punching cardboard) grab a good JHP like a gold dot, and push it with a slower burning powder like Green Dot, power pistol, or WSF.

 

Why change powders? Well...

 

Intro to handgun recoil considerations:

 

1. Heavy bullets recoil LESS than lighter bullets do. Seems backward. But it is 100% true.

 

2. Powder burn rate is also seemingly backward:

 

* A slower burning powder produces higher velocity ammo and a sharper recoil impulse. Great for defensive ammo.

 

* A fast burning powder like CFE produces soft recoiling ammo, and slower muzzle velocities. Less powerful ammo. Great for target ammo.

 

The simple explanation of how this is true?

 

A fast-burn powder is used up before the bullet is halfway down the barrel. It’s a very high-pressure burst, yet still a small puff of gas. Picture it like a dart gun: You’re blowing into the blowgun really hard for a fraction of a second. High muzzle velocities aren’t possible due to the pressure spike: you’re already at +P pressures before your 147gr bullet is anywhere near 1,000 FPS.

 

A slow-burn powder lets you use more of it, because the bullet is advancing further down the barrel during the time when the powder burns, so available volume and chamber pressure are occuring together. You’re not blowing on the back of your blowdart as hard, but you’re pushing on it for a longer period of time. Faster projectile velocities result.

You also get more recoil, partially due to the fact that a significant volume of gas exits the muzzle as soon as the bullet clears, and the barrel of the gun becomes a rocket nozzle propelling the gun backward. 

I have a few hundred rounds I loaded that are kept in a box in the closet: 124gr gold dot and the maximum book load of Green Dot. They’re  certainly hot enough to get the job done, with muzzle velocities a bit higher than factory Speer or Federal HST ammo. But they’re certainly not some crazy +P+ recipe.

Edited November 14, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[XrayDoc88]

47 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

We can do this SO MUCH cheaper. With readily available components.

 

I’ve already done this exact same trial and error process. 147 HST is my carry load as well. Wanted to shoot ammo that recoiled just like it in a defensive training class..

 

 

Buy any 115 jacketed bullet and follow the recipe in the first line. Stagger load a mag with this ammo and 147 HST and you won’t be able to tell which round is which. 

WSF and 115gr bullets can both be found at your local shops pretty easily, too.

(CFE is much faster in burn rate than the powder you’ll find backing defensive JHPs, and would have produced noticeably softer recoil under a 147.)

 

 

MemphisMechanic, oh my gosh!  Is that your personal research above for that many different bullets in 9mm?  Your suggestion is very interesting.  I never considered trying to match "feel" with completely different bullet weights and velocities.  I have no idea what kind of powder is in an HST round, so maybe my approach was silly.  Same bullet weight and type, with different powder must recoil differently anyway.  I'm not certain if the top line would definitely be cheaper however.  I haven't bought any bullets or powder yet.

 

My plan to purchase CFE Pistol powder was simply based on browsing reloading forums and seeing many reloaders who really liked using that powder.  I settled on Zero bullets because of the similar construction and weight and their lower price to Hornady XTP bullets.  (I don't think you can buy Federal HST bullets.)

Edited November 14, 2019 by XrayDoc88

[MemphisMechanic]

20 minutes ago, XrayDoc88 said:

 

MemphisMechanic, oh my gosh!  Is that your personal research above for that many different bullets in 9mm?  Your suggestion is very interesting.  I never considered trying to match "feel" with completely different bullet weights and velocities.  I have no idea what kind of powder is in an HST round, so maybe my approach was silly.  Same bullet weight and type, with different powdeer must recoil differently anyway.  I'm not certain if the top line would definitely be cheaper however.  I haven't bought any bullets or powder yet.

 

My plan to purchase CFE Pistol powder was simply based on browsing reloading forums and seeing many reloaders who really liked using that powder.  I settled on Zero bullets because of the similar construction and weight and their lower price to Hornady XTP bullets.  (I don't think you can buy Federal HST bullets.)

The reply I just posted might help you shed some light on this.

 

And yes, that spreadsheet is every round I’ve ever loaded and chrono’d.

 

F = M*A is an equation we all know well. You can change the weight of the projectile and the burn rate of the powder around to get two different weight bullets to recoil with almost the same exact felt impulse.

 

You just need to get in the same ballpark with regards to energy exiting the muzzle, and the burn rate of the powder permitting a similar recoil impulse.

 

And CFE is very popular partially because we like shooting softer ammo at cardboard targets.  
 

Edited November 14, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[zzt]

48 minutes ago, XrayDoc88 said:

My main reasons for starting to reload are: to develop a potentially valuable skill when the country collapses under liberal rule; to start a new hobby as I approach retirement; to reuse brass (I hate just throwing it away); and possibly to even learn how to develop higher accuracy rifle loads for long range shooting.

 

I've already purchased a single stage press and some 9mm dies, so I'm committed to at least start learning with 9mm reloads.

 

For 9mm, your single stage press will have you giving up in frustration in no time.  Since you want to develop skills and start a new hobby, make life easy on yourself.  Buy a Dillon SDB or a 550 with dies, a powder scale, primer flipper, vibratory cleaner and a media separator.  I started with a SDB in 45, because I was not loading large quantities.  4000 a year was tops.  The SDB comes already set up for the caliber you ordered.  All you have to do is readjust the expander setting and the powder drop.  It is a simple to use, easy to understand, progressive machine that will let you crank out 400 rounds and hour.  You can sell the 9mm dies you bought, because the SDB uses special dies.  Or buy a 550 and use the dies you already bought.

[XrayDoc88]

Great explanation.  Thanks.  So ideally should a powder be chosen to match barrel length?  Is there any way to actually do this?  My main concealed pocket carry gun has a 3.1" barrel.  Do I need a faster burning powder so that unburnt powder doesn't exit the muzzle?  Or will the slowest burning powder still be consumed before exiting a short barrel?

 

I found this relative burn rate chart in a Hodgdon manual.  It actually lists CFE Pistol as burning slower than WSR.  

[XrayDoc88]

12 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

For 9mm, your single stage press will have you giving up in frustration in no time.  Since you want to develop skills and start a new hobby, make life easy on yourself.  Buy a Dillon SDB or a 550 with dies, a powder scale, primer flipper, vibratory cleaner and a media separator.  I started with a SDB in 45, because I was not loading large quantities.  4000 a year was tops.  The SDB comes already set up for the caliber you ordered.  All you have to do is readjust the expander setting and the powder drop.  It is a simple to use, easy to understand, progressive machine that will let you crank out 400 rounds and hour.  You can sell the 9mm dies you bought, because the SDB uses special dies.  Or buy a 550 and use the dies you already bought.

 

I"m sure you're correct about the frustration (slowness) of 9mm and a single stage press.  When I first started lurking on some reloading forums, the majority highly recommended learning on a single stage press.  So, after much personal torment, I followed their advice and gave up my plans of buying a Dillon 650XL.  I think I'll probably buy a progressive press in the future however.

[4n2t0]

Now you've gone and opened up a can of worms (favourite powders), lol. A powder should be choosen because it produces the desired results (accuracy, cleanliness, velocity etc.). Since you're trying to replicate a defensive type load CFE will do just fine. I'd also get a lb of something a little faster just to try (231/HP-38, Titegroup, Sport Pistol etc.). Every powder has its own set of pros and cons but at the end of the day most powders are at least serviceable.

 

We cannot carry in Canada, so take this advice with a grain of salt, but I would never use reloads in a defensive situation.

Edited November 14, 2019 by 4n2t0

[zzt]

4 hours ago, XrayDoc88 said:

gave up my plans of buying a Dillon 650XL

 

Good idea.  They are fiddley.

[muncie21]

5 hours ago, XrayDoc88 said:

 

 I followed their advice and gave up my plans of buying a Dillon 650XL.  I think I'll probably buy a progressive press in the future however.

Get a progressive, I prefer blue, but most any red or blue progressive is better than a single stage, unless you're making bulls-eye loads.

[superdude]

There is a lot of misinformation here.  

 

People are trying to give you a heads-up on how powders tend to work with respect to speed and recoil. That’s good, and their input is appreciated. That said, some of what has been posted does not fit actual real-world data. Let’s look at the facts. 

 

1. CFE does not produce slower muzzle velocities than other powders in the 9mm.  If you look at published data, CFE produces some of the highest speeds.  In the example the OP posted, CFE provides the second faster velocity with the 147 grain bullet.  Hornady’s manual also shows CFE producing some of the highest speeds for which they used it.

 

2. Published data by some companies is right up to the maximum limit, without going over. For example, Western Powders data. And see Guy Neill's posts at this link:  

 

 

3. If you buy a 147 grain Gold Dot like MemphisMechanic suggests, stay with CFE. It will push the bullet faster (980 fps) than Power Pistol (975 fps) or WSF (931 fps), according to Speer’s data.   https://www.speer-ammo.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/Handgun/9mm_caliber_355-366_dia/9mm_Luger__147_rev1.pdf

 

4. Recoil force is calculated with 3 values; bullet weight, bullet speed, gunpowder weight. You can use the calculator at the following link to check it yourself; http://kwk.us/recoil.html   

 

Powder weight adds to the recoil force because it is part of the ejecta that comes out of the end of the barrel.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil#Including_the_ejected_gas

 

All else being equal, a powder that requires more weight to push the same bullet to the same speed will produce more recoil force. That is demonstrated here:   https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/measure-relative-handgun-recoil/99442

 

5. Bullet weight and recoil: heavier bullets will have slightly less recoil than lighter bullets if the are pushed to the same POWER FACTOR (PF). That is demonstrated here: https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/power-factor-recoil-bullet-weight-gives-edge/99399 

 

That’s great information for competitors to know for the lightest recoil since they often load their ammo around PF requirements.  However, factory ammo usually doesn’t load the different bullet weights to the same PF.  Here’s a quick look at 9mm ammo. The recoil is also shown, but the powder weight has not been included since they might not use the same type of powder for different loads, and that can make a big difference in recoil (recoil for a 2.5 lb gun).

115 grain at 1180 fps, 136 PF, 2.34 ft lbs recoil.

124 grain at 1150 fps, 143 PF, 2.58 ft lbs recoil.

147 grain at 1000 fps, 147 PF, 2.74 ft lbs recoil.

 

In this example, the 147 bullet produces more recoil force.

 

6. Burn rate charts are useful, but they don’t always agree. One should consult several burn rate charts before deciding on a rank. Rank also doesn’t necessarily tell you how they will react in all cartridges, so don’t depend on them very much.  Always consult a loading manual(s), and base your decision for the performance you desire on actual published data. Often, several powders will give you the performance you like. 

 

7. CFE is a fine powder for your needs and is a good all-around powder.  If you’re not happy with it, then you can try a different powder (but try a pound of CFE first). 

 

[Sarge]

7 hours ago, XrayDoc88 said:

 

I"m sure you're correct about the frustration (slowness) of 9mm and a single stage press.  When I first started lurking on some reloading forums, the majority highly recommended learning on a single stage press.  So, after much personal torment, I followed their advice and gave up my plans of buying a Dillon 650XL.  I think I'll probably buy a progressive press in the future however.

I don't know if I agree. Are you going to shoot much? I have loaded on a rock Chucker and it took all week to load enough to plink quite a bit on Saturday. That was 40 years ago. I didn't reload again until 2008 and went straight to a 550 based on "everybody's opinion". Sold it a year later and got a 650. I can't imagine ever going back to a single stage except for maybe some odd ball rounds. It is not hard at all to load on a 650 if you are even remotely mechanically inclined. It's just something you have to invest time into to learn the machine.

[olstyn]

4 minutes ago, Sarge said:

It is not hard at all to load on a 650 if you are even remotely mechanically inclined. It's just something you have to invest time into to learn the machine.

 

^

This. Buy a Dillon 650/750 or a Hornady LnL and call it a day.  Either will serve you well and be a LOT faster than a single stage even for small batches of ammo.  I learned the basics on my father in law's RCBS single stage, but loading enough 9mm for a few matches on it was super tedious.  Moving to a progressive when I bought my own press only upped the complexity of what I was doing by a small amount, but it sped the process up massively and was far more pleasant as a result.