mandatory reload

[fishhunter3]

stage was 4 paper targets req 2 shoots each and 4 poppers, stage brief was engage either the paper or  poppers array preform a   mandatory reload then engage the other array,

shooter engages the poppers first and misses the last popper does his reload and sees a popper still standing, shoots missed steel then engages the 4 paper targets,  what is the call on this?

my call was shooter didn't preform the mandatory reload before engaging the 2nd array and would receive 8 procedurals as per 10.2.4, the shooter and the rm said he did do a reload  after engaging the steel, and since he engaged it (but missed) no procedural was given, my argument was yes he preformed an reload but reengaged the steel array  and was  required an 2nd reload before the paper could be shot, and then he could makeup the miss on the last  steel,     no penalties were given 

[223to45]

Well I say your call was correct.

Curious as to what others say.



Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Mcfoto]

I agree with your call.

[jcc7x7]

Hard to"prove" he was shooting at the steel.

But I do understand where you are coming from

Edit

Mis read shoots "missed" steel as he missed it again after the reload

Edited November 11, 2019 by jcc7x7

[Joe4d]

what was the exact wording ? If it was worded the way you wrote, I say no penalty.
Did he engage a single array ?  yep...
Did he perform a reload ? yep

Did he Then engage the second array ? yep.
Remember engage is shoot at, not hit.

Now if the WSB had engage either array, THEN perform a reload. THEN engage second array... I could see your point more. Way you wrote the WSB, there is no time on the reload specified. He coulda fired one shot then reloaded. and finished long as it was sometime before the second array.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Joe4d

[fishhunter3]

Not so hard to prove shoots 3 poppers and misss the 4th reloads  shoots 4th and it falls over them engaged paper.

 

Stage brief engage either array  then preform  an mandatory reload before engaging 2nd array. Pretty cut and dry

[gransport]

He engaged the first array. He performed the reload before engaging the 2nd array. I'd agree with the RM. I can also see were I could've called it wrong initially. 

 

"Stage brief engage either array  then preform  an mandatory reload before engaging 2nd array."

[happygunner77]

Your call is correct. The shooter should have reloaded again after the steel make up shot to engage the 2nd array.

[Intheshaw1]

Why not just ask for the WSB to be updated to include something like 'engange the poppers, perform mandatory reload, then engage the paper OR engage the paper, perform mandatory reload, then engage the paper.'

 

I hate ambiguous wording as it does leave open a bit of doubt for the correct call. At least it would be fixed going forward.

[egd5]

Was this comstock or virginia count? If comstock I think rm was correct.

Just to throw a wrench into the works, what if he had done the reload then engaged the paper targets and THEN picked up that last popper?

[nasty618]

If it has steel - it has to be comstock.  I think OP's call was correct.  

As far as the wrench, check out the last line of the WSB for 03-05,, how would you call it in your scenario? 

Edited November 11, 2019 by nasty618

[broadside72]

He engaged the first array. Specific wording of the WSB is required here to be able to say more definitively.

If it is simply "engage one array, then reload, then engage the other array", he could have shot at one target in either array (hit or miss) reloaded and then shot everything else. Since he engaged the array ("A grouping of more than one target.") by shooting at it once, he met that requirement. 

 

Had it said "engage T1-T4 or PP1-PP4 then reload, then engage remaining targets" that would be different.

And since it said "engage" that does not mean hit. If 4 rounds were thrown at the poppers and one was a miss the RO has no way to prove the shooter did not engage the missed plate unless the shooter never moved/transitioned.  The RM was correct here. 

I like the wording in the 03-05 WSB linked above. No ambiguity there. 
 

[theWacoKid]

Wording matters.  By your wording, no penalties.  

[fishhunter3]

5 hours ago, broadside72 said:

Had it said "engage T1-T4 or PP1-PP4 then reload, then engage remaining targets" that would be different.

 the target and popper numbers were in the stage brief  just didn't and to post for brevity, I'll have to be more carful in my posting my bad 

[broadside72]

17 hours ago, fishhunter3 said:

 the target and popper numbers were in the stage brief  just didn't and to post for brevity, I'll have to be more carful in my posting my bad 

But even if that's what it said I still think the RM was right since the shooter engaged the array before reloading and starting on the second array

Edited November 12, 2019 by broadside72

[toothandnail]

Target was engaged, no penalty.
ETA:  At my matches, any ambiguity like that - the call goes in the shooters favor. 

Edited November 12, 2019 by toothandnail

[Thomas H]

23 hours ago, fishhunter3 said:

stage was 4 paper targets req 2 shoots each and 4 poppers, stage brief was engage either the paper or  poppers array preform a   mandatory reload then engage the other array,

shooter engages the poppers first and misses the last popper does his reload and sees a popper still standing, shoots missed steel then engages the 4 paper targets,  what is the call on this?

 

 

Shooter, by your own words, engaged all poppers in the first array, performed a mandatory reload, then engaged the other array.  No penalty.

 

If you had wanted to micromanage the situation and tell them exactly when to reload, or that they couldn't switch arrays without a reload, you'd have to add something like what is in the stage procedures for classifier 03-05, which is:  "A mandatory reload is required whenever changing arrays." or something like that.

 

 

[waktasz]

23 hours ago, fishhunter3 said:

 

 

Stage brief engage either array  then preform  an mandatory reload before engaging 2nd array. Pretty cut and dry

 

He engaged all the steel (engaged just means shot at), did his reload, then finished, exactly as the COF says to do. No penalty.

 

Also, this is why you shoot the paper first on stages like this. 

[HCH]

No penalty. 

[pjb45]

No Penalty

Wording is important.

 

[bret]

According to the way the WSB was written, I don't see any penalties. 

 

he engaged the steel, performed the mandatory reload, re engaged the missed popper and then engaged the paper.

 

Engage does not mean hit, it means shot at, he fired at each piece of steel then did his mandatory reload, before engaging the paper,  he satisfied the requirements of the WSB.

 

 

[HI5-O]

On 11/11/2019 at 5:39 AM, fishhunter3 said:

stage was 4 paper targets req 2 shoots each and 4 poppers, stage brief was engage either the paper or  poppers array preform a   mandatory reload then engage the other array, ........

The shooter should have received penalties if wording is important. Some are only looking at and only up to the mandatory reload. The rest of the wording is important too. Such as after the mandatory reload, THEN engage the OTHER array. 
 

Not a lawyer but learned to read the entire text and not just parts. 
 

 

[Thomas H]

3 hours ago, HI5-O said:

The shooter should have received penalties if wording is important. Some are only looking at and only up to the mandatory reload. The rest of the wording is important too. Such as after the mandatory reload, THEN engage the OTHER array. 
 

Not a lawyer but learned to read the entire text and not just parts. 
 

 

 

After the reload, the shooter engaged the other array.  It doesn't say he can't engage anything else.  (Hint:  this was Comstock.  Extra shots are legal.)

 

He engaged the first array, reloaded, and engaged the second array.  He didn't engage the second array until after the reload.  He engaged all of the first array prior to the reload.

 

Nothing in the WSB supports any sort of penalty for this set of actions.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Thomas H

[nasty618]

12 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

He engaged the first array, reloaded, and engaged the second array

 

With a small, but important correction - he reloaded, re-engaged the same array, then proceeded to engage the OTHER array without reloading. Does that make a difference? 

 

On 11/11/2019 at 10:39 AM, fishhunter3 said:

shooter engages the poppers first and misses the last popper does his reload and sees a popper still standing, shoots missed steel then engages the 4 paper targets

 

[MikeBurgess]

2 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

 

With a small, but important correction - he reloaded, re-engaged the same array, then proceeded to engage the OTHER array without reloading. Does that make a difference? 

 

 

 

No

 

ask the questions in order,

Did he engage one of the arrays? yes

Did he perform a reload? yes

Was his reload before he engaged the second array? yes

Did the WSB mandate a reload between arrays? no 

 

what he shot after the reload before hitting a target in the second array is immaterial, the WSB doesn't dictate that.