What makes a stage "technical"?

[anonymouscuban]

Awesome discussion fellas. I think I have a better understanding of what makes a stage technical. I can say that many of the stages at my local matches are not. A lot of "start here, shoot stuff... run there, shoot stuff."

We have swingers, Texas stars, that polish thingabob. But again, most stages have one way to shoot them. However, on occasion, I think we do have a technical stage thrown in.

I shot my first memory stage last month. There were multiple ways to shoot this and none of them were truly superior over the other. You can shoot while moving and it really took some thinking to make sure you didn't forget to engage targets. Many did. I did. I was doing well, then my mag didn't seat correctly. Threw me off mentally and I ended up with a failure to engage one target. UGH. Loads of fun though.


Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

[shred]

IMO those kinds of memory stages are weak-- not very fun nor technical.  There's nothing to them but show up early enough to find the shooting spots or get the plan from someone and that's it.  They suck at majors (esp IPSC majors when you can't pre-walk) when your squad starts on it and by halfway through day 2, everyone else knows the best plan.

 

There's little shooting challenge, just remembering what to shoot when.  That gets old after you've seen it half a dozen times.... (FWIW I feel the same about any other stage designs where the designers goal is to screw shooters up, because funny, but lots of people seem to like them. )

 

 

[Southpaw]

8 hours ago, anonymouscuban said:

I shot my first memory stage last month. There were multiple ways to shoot this and none of them were truly superior over the other. You can shoot while moving and it really took some thinking to make sure you didn't forget to engage targets. Many did. I did. I was doing well, then my mag didn't seat correctly. Threw me off mentally and I ended up with a failure to engage one target. UGH. Loads of fun though.

 

 

I have a different name for stages like that...

[perttime]

11 hours ago, Southpaw said:

 

I have a different name for stages like that...

 

Do I want to know?

[elguapo]

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 2:02 PM, shred said:

IMO those kinds of memory stages are weak-- not very fun nor technical.  There's nothing to them but show up early enough to find the shooting spots or get the plan from someone and that's it.  They suck at majors (esp IPSC majors when you can't pre-walk) when your squad starts on it and by halfway through day 2, everyone else knows the best plan.

 

There's little shooting challenge, just remembering what to shoot when.  That gets old after you've seen it half a dozen times.... (FWIW I feel the same about any other stage designs where the designers goal is to screw shooters up, because funny, but lots of people seem to like them. )

 

 

 

100% agree

[GunBugBit]

I would define "technical" as a stage that requires more mental energy than most other stages.  But I'm no connoisseur of stage design, just a guy that goes out and shoots what you put in front of me.

[motosapiens]

On 11/1/2019 at 10:43 AM, Sarge said:

  Are you being serious right now? You have to SEARCH really hard around here to see a GM help with set up, or even help run shooters for that matter. The reason us lowly non GM/M shooters are on match staff is because we are willing to help. 

 

  

 

hmm. a slight majority of our frequent stage designers are M or GM. I would agree with cha-lee that *in general* we get more interesting stages out of them, with fewer needed rules or safety tweaks, but that certainly doesn't mean the A and B guys are doing a poor job. In fact they are working hard and learning quickly and getting better quickly (at stage designs and at shooting), and they will probably be M before long.

 

we'll take help from anyone, but if you haven't built any stages for our club previously, someone will at least look at your diagram for a sanity-check.

 

fwiw, i suspect that major match experience might be a better tell-tale than classification level when it comes to stage design. People see stuff they liked somewhere else and bring ideas back.

Edited November 4, 2019 by motosapiens

[Racinready300ex]

On 11/3/2019 at 10:50 AM, anonymouscuban said:

Awesome discussion fellas. I think I have a better understanding of what makes a stage technical. I can say that many of the stages at my local matches are not. A lot of "start here, shoot stuff... run there, shoot stuff."

We have swingers, Texas stars, that polish thingabob. But again, most stages have one way to shoot them. However, on occasion, I think we do have a technical stage thrown in.

I shot my first memory stage last month. There were multiple ways to shoot this and none of them were truly superior over the other. You can shoot while moving and it really took some thinking to make sure you didn't forget to engage targets. Many did. I did. I was doing well, then my mag didn't seat correctly. Threw me off mentally and I ended up with a failure to engage one target. UGH. Loads of fun though.


Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk
 

 

Those stages are lazy IMO. I've seen several of them, all basically the same concept. I could show up early and build one of those with zero thought or effort. All it does is screw the guys who don't get there early enough to walk the stages. At majors it hurts staff the most because they wont have time to game it, and the guys shooting on Sunday and walking stages on Saturday have the biggest advantage. Typically shooting skill has little to do with your finish.

 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

On 11/1/2019 at 12:43 PM, Sarge said:

  Are you being serious right now? You have to SEARCH really hard around here to see a GM help with set up, or even help run shooters for that matter. The reason us lowly non GM/M shooters are on match staff is because we are willing to help. 

  Your theory also gets busted by the fact that the same guys who do stage design, help set up etc for our local matches are the same guys who help with our state and Area championships.

  

 

Around here that's not how it is. Keep in mind we're talking about a handful of guys spread out over a lot of matches. Sure there are more lower class guys helping, but I bet there is a higher % of high level guys who help then low level guys. Think about it if there a 5 local GM's and 3 of them are working matches in some capacity, but there are a thousand B and C class shooters in the area and 100 are helping, one group will look like they are doing all the work.

 

You may just need to open your eye's.

[Tango]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Those stages are lazy IMO. I've seen several of them, all basically the same concept. I could show up early and build one of those with zero thought or effort. All it does is screw the guys who don't get there early enough to walk the stages. At majors it hurts staff the most because they wont have time to game it, and the guys shooting on Sunday and walking stages on Saturday have the biggest advantage. Typically shooting skill has little to do with your finish.

 

 

 

I am relatively new to the game, but already can recognize this pattern. I dislike these kind of "memory" stages and think that they are unfair for the reasons you mentioned.

 

There is a local club here run buy a GM, his family and his buddies. They always throw in two to three such trick memory stages in every match with huge overall points and seem to be so well rehearsed in how to shoot them....they give all the nonmember/outside shooters a total of 5 mins to walk through these stages, and no surprise everybody outside of their group make costly mistakes. The funny thing is they never shoot in any other club either. 

 

These stages are testing memory skills that are not necessarily practical for real life either, but that is a different discussion. 

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Around here that's not how it is. Keep in mind we're talking about a handful of guys spread out over a lot of matches. Sure there are more lower class guys helping, but I bet there is a higher % of high level guys who help then low level guys. Think about it if there a 5 local GM's and 3 of them are working matches in some capacity, but there are a thousand B and C class shooters in the area and 100 are helping, one group will look like they are doing all the work.

 

You may just need to open your eye's.

Uh no. I know nearly every shooter in my part of the state. I know who does the work and who doesn’t. That’s exactly because I do have my eyes wide open.

[Racinready300ex]

11 hours ago, Sarge said:

Uh no. I know nearly every shooter in my part of the state. I know who does the work and who doesn’t. That’s exactly because I do have my eyes wide open.

 

That's to bad, perhaps attitude drives people away.

[Racinready300ex]

11 hours ago, Tango said:

I am relatively new to the game, but already can recognize this pattern. I dislike these kind of "memory" stages and think that they are unfair for the reasons you mentioned.

 

There is a local club here run buy a GM, his family and his buddies. They always throw in two to three such trick memory stages in every match with huge overall points and seem to be so well rehearsed in how to shoot them....they give all the nonmember/outside shooters a total of 5 mins to walk through these stages, and no surprise everybody outside of their group make costly mistakes. The funny thing is they never shoot in any other club either. 

 

These stages are testing memory skills that are not necessarily practical for real life either, but that is a different discussion. 

 

The fix to that is generally show up a hour or two early and walk the stage. Take their advantage away from them.  

[elguapo]

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 10:50 AM, anonymouscuban said:

I shot my first memory stage last month. There were multiple ways to shoot this and none of them were truly superior over the other. You can shoot while moving and it really took some thinking to make sure you didn't forget to engage targets. Many did. I did. I was doing well, then my mag didn't seat correctly. Threw me off mentally and I ended up with a failure to engage one target. UGH. Loads of fun though.


Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk
 

 

I would stop going to a club that would make stuff like that a regular feature.  Luckily where I live we rarely see those kinds of stupid stages and I have several clubs within a reasonable drive.

Edited November 5, 2019 by elguapo

[shred]

17 hours ago, motosapiens said:

fwiw, i suspect that major match experience might be a better tell-tale than classification level when it comes to stage design. People see stuff they liked somewhere else and bring ideas back.

This last is key.  Bring in new ideas.  Everyone has a 'style' of stage design and it gets worn after a while no matter how good they are at it (the really good ones can recognize their own style and intentionally break it).   The B shooters can have some really interesting ideas.

 

We are usually blessed with pretty good skilled stage designers/builders.  The last club match had 2 GMs, an M, A and B shooter do stages. 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

That's to bad, perhaps attitude drives people away.

I see what you did there.

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

That's to bad, perhaps attitude drives people away.

 

4 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

I see what you did there.

I’m not sure what you are saying. Who is driving who away? Who is being driven away? You can’t drive somebody away from helping if they don’t help in the first place. 

  I think we all know the truth of the matter is that “generally” better shooters want to get better, they want to shoot. So they focus on shooting, not working matches. Nothing kills match performance like signing up to RO a squad.

  If you travel to major matches you see the same old people week in and week out who are on staff. They are not GM’s who are still competitive. Those guys are at all the matches too. But they are there to shoot. It’s just two different mindsets.

  

  

[motosapiens]

28 minutes ago, Sarge said:

  I think we all know the truth of the matter is that “generally” better shooters want to get better, they want to shoot. So they focus on shooting, not working matches. Nothing kills match performance like signing up to RO a squad.

  

 

 

Yeah, if someone wanted me to 'sign up to RO a squad', I would not sign up. OTOH, pretty much every good shooter at my club RO's. We share the duties so everyone gets a chance to concentrate on their shooting. If you're one of the last couple guys on the squad, you RO the first few shooters and as soon as one of those guys is reloaded and ready to go, they take over.

[MikeBurgess]

38 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Yeah, if someone wanted me to 'sign up to RO a squad', I would not sign up. OTOH, pretty much every good shooter at my club RO's. We share the duties so everyone gets a chance to concentrate on their shooting. If you're one of the last couple guys on the squad, you RO the first few shooters and as soon as one of those guys is reloaded and ready to go, they take over.

Official Squad RO duty would suck, but luckily where I shoot there is no lack of RO's so the duties get shared pretty well. 

a few months back on a 16 shooter squad first stage someone asked "who here is a RO?" we all looked around and pointed at the two new shooters and said not them, out of 16 shooters there were 14 ROs or CROs  we did have a former area director that said he his cert out of date. 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

 

I’m not sure what you are saying. Who is driving who away? Who is being driven away? You can’t drive somebody away from helping if they don’t help in the first place. 

  I think we all know the truth of the matter is that “generally” better shooters want to get better, they want to shoot. So they focus on shooting, not working matches. Nothing kills match performance like signing up to RO a squad.

  If you travel to major matches you see the same old people week in and week out who are on staff. They are not GM’s who are still competitive. Those guys are at all the matches too. But they are there to shoot. It’s just two different mindsets.

 

 

Around here we don't have a squad RO to sign up and I probably wouldn't do that either. Like Moto around here it's shared among the squad. Most GM's in the area are either RO's, CRO's or know the rules well enough to fill in if needed. It's not uncommon to see them with the timer in there hand, or helping set up, tear down and assisting the MD's.

 

It's not many, but again the pool isn't that big to begin with. But I do see a few good M and GM guys working majors in the area every year.

 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

It's not many, but again the pool isn't that big to begin with. But I do see a few good M and GM guys working majors in the area every year.

 

 

cha-lee and gooldylocks are the only legitimate GM's (i.e. not revolver or pcc) I can think of right offhand that I see working majors, but I can think of several other M's besides myself that generally work their home section match and/or their home area match. Like probably a dozen or more.  At any rate, working majors is a whole different thing. many people like to work those matches because they can shoot the staff match, get some expenses compensated, and contribute to the sport. What we were talking about is local matches, and around here, every M or GM I can think of is at the upper end of commitment to help, whether that's serving as MD, designing stages, or just showing up early and pitching in.

[Racinready300ex]

28 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

cha-lee and gooldylocks are the only legitimate GM's (i.e. not revolver or pcc) I can think of right offhand that I see working majors, but I can think of several other M's besides myself that generally work their home section match and/or their home area match. Like probably a dozen or more.  At any rate, working majors is a whole different thing. many people like to work those matches because they can shoot the staff match, get some expenses compensated, and contribute to the sport. What we were talking about is local matches, and around here, every M or GM I can think of is at the upper end of commitment to help, whether that's serving as MD, designing stages, or just showing up early and pitching in.

 

I see similar, not che-lee and gooldy specifically because I'm in a different area so I see different guys at majors but there are a couple. Same as you at locals I see more of them helping. A couple really good Masters in the area are even MD's.