shooting while moving?

[motosapiens]

After just doing local matches, Mrs moto is planning to take steel challenge more seriously this year, so we're looking at the rules. What does the rule below actually mean? That I have to be fully stopped in the 2nd box of outer limits before I put my finger back in the trigger guard?  (We are both uspsa RO's with major match experience, fwiw) 

 

8.1.1.7  Moving (taking more than one step) with finger inside of trigger

guard.

 

The uspsa version of this rule specifically allows the finger inside the trigger guard when aiming or shooting at targets, but I was unable to find any such exceptions for steel, so my question is how is this rule actually enforced?

 

similarly, regarding remedial action, USPSA rules only require your finger out of the trigger guard during remedial action if the gun is moved away from targets. It looks like steel challenge has a different rule with no exceptions. Is there some kind of good reason for having fundamental safety rules that are so different between the 2 sports?

Edited October 28, 2019 by motosapiens

[ZackJones]

You do not have to be fully stopped. As soon as one foot is on the ground inside the box and the second is off the ground you can engage the plates.

Now if between the boxes you have your finger inside the trigger guard and take more than one step then it’s a DQ.

[xpierrat]

And if you typically  push off with the left foot.... step with the right and then left foot and finally right foot into the box you can begin to engage the trigger when the left foot touches and you are stepping into the box with the right foot...( being the last one step )  breaking the shot as the right foot is down and the LEFT FOOT COMES OFF THE GROUND. 

 

 but be careful because if you break a shot and that left is still on the ground outside the box it is a 3 sec procedural     Some shooters have such long legs and are strong enough that they are able to do it in one step... push off... step with the right and then the left actually goes in the box and they can shoot when the right comes off the ground.... but for most it puts you at a bad angle and is jerky which becomes slower than doing it in two smooth steps... OL is the most hated/Loved stage in a match    and has been the cause of many horses being beat to death as its been discussed.LOL

[motosapiens]

I guess my main concern is the difference between uspsa and sc rules. In uspsa, i can have my finger in the trigger guard and be aiming even before I enter a shooting area, and it is pretty standard procedure to do so. It seems odd to draw the dq lines differently  for a sport that is closely associated with uspsa.

[zzt]

There is a difference between aiming and pointing.  While you may be pointing the gun at the right array while moving,  you aren't aiming.  You are watching where your feet are going.  At every LII and LIII match I've shot, the MD emphasizes this at the match briefing and tells the ROs to watch out for it. 8.1.1.7 is specific.  USPSA carves out an exemption to avoid a judgement call.  They didn't always.  SCSA does not.

 

[motosapiens]

13 minutes ago, zzt said:

There is a difference between aiming and pointing.  While you may be pointing the gun at the right array while moving,  you aren't aiming.  You are watching where your feet are going.  

 

 

In uspsa, I may glance where my feet are going to go one time, but then my subconscious handles that part while I worry about the sights. 

 

For outer limits, i don't even look down. My feet can find the box without me paying conscious attention to it. It's the same distance away every time.

 

Regardless, it's not life and death here. Just something I need to visualize and practice a few times. I can see where for many people there is a definite period of 'not aiming' during the movement. For all I know, it may not even be an issue. mrs moto and I will have to check each other out next practice and see what our fingers are doing and when.

Edited October 29, 2019 by motosapiens

[nso123]

I have been practicing the movement between boxes, and also do not look at my feet when I transition.  I do keep the rifle pointed toward my next target as I move, but have not quite developed the ability to keep the dot on it while moving.  I am aware that I move my trigger along the receiver while taking my steps, so I don't get it back on the trigger until I feel my lead foot settle in the box.

[zzt]

I only shoot pistols so far, but I do the same.  When I'm one step from the box I bring the gun up into firing position, but my finger is outside the trigger until my right foot hits the ground.  I do look where I am going up until the last step, because I've seen too many stumbles.

[stick]

5 hours ago, zzt said:

I only shoot pistols so far, but I do the same.  When I'm one step from the box I bring the gun up into firing position, but my finger is outside the trigger until my right foot hits the ground.  I do look where I am going up until the last step, because I've seen too many stumbles.

If you practice, you should be able to go from box to box in two steps.  the distance from box to box is 6' By looking where you are going and not at the target you are slowing your self down.  Practice looking at your target and taking two steps into the other box, at which point you're ready to shoot.  I always start in the back right side of the box, then take two steps either forward or lateral into the box. ( I always stepped lateral, but I know a lot of shooters who preferred to step forward)

Edited October 29, 2019 by stick

[zzt]

11 minutes ago, stick said:

I always start in the back right side of the box, then take two steps either forward or lateral into the box. ( I always stepped lateral, but I know a lot of shooters who preferred to step forward)

 

I do the same.  The ground is not always even, so my first step is out of the box with my right foot while looking at the ground.  I'm moving between forward and laterally.  Second step with left foot looking at target and bringing gun to bear.  Third step lands me in the middle of the  box ready to shoot.  Usually the first shot is off before my left foot hits the ground.

[Hammer002]

22 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I guess my main concern is the difference between uspsa and sc rules. In uspsa, i can have my finger in the trigger guard and be aiming even before I enter a shooting area, and it is pretty standard procedure to do so. It seems odd to draw the dq lines differently  for a sport that is closely associated with uspsa.

 

The two sets of rules USPSA and Steel Challenge are stand alone by each other.  Neither may be applied to the other.  If its not in the Steel Challenge rules, it does not exist during Steel Challenge and visa versa.  Many of the rules need to be clarified.  In my opinion, this is one of them, for even more than the reason you ask.

 

Situation:  Shooter fires a shot while moving toward box two.  The shot is outside 10 feet and not during a loading/reloading process and within the course of fire.  DQ?  Or is it just a foot fault?  Does it matter if the shooter was pointing/aiming at a target?  The rules in their current form support the foot fault, not the DQ.  The shooter could say they were attempting to engage the targets, and could have been, and therefore allowed to have finger in trigger guard.  How would you call it different for one shooter who unexpectedly fires a shot versus one doing the exact same thing who thought they were in the box but weren't?  How do you call it if the shooter enters the second box, puts finger in trigger to engage, but continues two more steps?  Yes, I have seen this, recently.

 

Zack and Troy do an amazing job.  The rules are slowly coming together.  I have found if you simply apply Troy's number one rule, "Don't be a Dick," everything usually sorts itself out.  At my matches we have an understanding on this rule, its not yet written completely and to apply common sense.  If the RO believes the shooter is unsafe with gun movement, sure, call it.  Otherwise, leave it alone.  And don't even get me started on false start vs creeping! 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Hammer002

[conditionone]

The difference is that in USPSA  you are allowed to shoot on the move. In Steel Challenge you are not.

[motosapiens]

54 minutes ago, conditionone said:

The difference is that in USPSA  you are allowed to shoot on the move. In Steel Challenge you are not.

it appears that the real difference is whether you are allowed to *aim* on the move before shooting.

Edited October 30, 2019 by motosapiens

[xpierrat]

4 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

The two sets of rules USPSA and Steel Challenge are stand alone by each other.  Neither may be applied to the other.  If its not in the Steel Challenge rules, it does not exist during Steel Challenge and visa versa.  Many of the rules need to be clarified.  In my opinion, this is one of them, for even more than the reason you ask.

 

Situation:  Shooter fires a shot while moving toward box two.  The shot is outside 10 feet and not during a loading/reloading process and within the course of fire.  DQ?  Or is it just a foot fault?  Does it matter if the shooter was pointing/aiming at a target?  The rules in their current form support the foot fault, not the DQ.  The shooter could say they were attempting to engage the targets, and could have been, and therefore allowed to have finger in trigger guard.  How would you call it different for one shooter who unexpectedly fires a shot versus one doing the exact same thing who thought they were in the box but weren't?  How do you call it if the shooter enters the second box, puts finger in trigger to engage, but continues two more steps?  Yes, I have seen this, recently.

 

Zack and Troy do an amazing job.  The rules are slowly coming together.  I have found if you simply apply Troy's number one rule, "Don't be a Dick," everything usually sorts itself out.  At my matches we have an understanding on this rule, its not yet written completely and to apply common sense.  If the RO believes the shooter is unsafe with gun movement, sure, call it.  Otherwise, leave it alone.  And don't even get me started on false start vs creeping! 

I agree this one has grey area, and requires a RO ( and MD ) to use some judgement on weather it is a DQ ... finger on Triger while moving … (usually can not have a AD with the finger off trigger ) or a foot fault …. Points I would consider in making the call....  where was he/she...  Just coming out of box to first foot touching and gun up,  but not aiming... reaction of shooter when gun went off..  would probably get a STOP and a DQ...   2nd foot  ( usually the left ) touching but right foot not in the 2nd box yet...  gun being aimed...  would probably be considered a foot fault... I think the rules have to have some grey area for this one.... I can see a shooter that has not done OL before ( their club does not have the bay space and only does 6 stages as example ) shooting the first two …. swings the gun to a third plate and shoots as he starts to move... to me this would not be a AD but a foot fault  and probably a bit of ribbing from the squad mates    and boy oh boy does the creeping /false start thing need some work...   Webster defines creeping as developing or advancing by slow imperceptible degrees ... for starters... 

 

[egd5]

How to eliminate all the question marks about creeping/false start----just let everyone aim at their first target. If the gun goes off before buzzer=DQ.

We wouldn't have to worry about practicing draws then also.  Two birds with one rule.

[motosapiens]

I guess I haven't seen a whole lot of creeping issues. I have seen people move towards the gun early, but I just wait until they get ready again.

 

In my limited experience (RO'ing 1000's of shooters) using the same cadence (same delay between standby and beep) is one of the things that causes people to want to anticipate the beep and start early. changing it up a little makes it harder to do, and easier to catch.

[zzt]

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

it appears that the real difference is whether you are allowed to *aim* on the move before shooting.

 

I PM's George Jones with the question of what rules apply.  He said for SCSA the ONLY rules that apply are in the SCSA rule book.  NOTHING from USPSA applies.  So no finger in the trigger while moving more than one step is a DQ.

 

I also talked to Zack Jones about the issue of creeping.  I specifically asked if I had to assess a procedural if the shooter started to move before the beep and I couldn't catch it, or could I stop and restart.  He said it was fine to stop the shooter and begin again.  That is what I have been doing.  I generally don't see many issues, but I agree following the recommended fixed cadence between Stand By and beep does encourage anticipating and creeping.  I had two instances at the match last Sat.   Both anticipated the beep.  One was my fault because the beef was a tiny fraction of a second slower than the previous three and he jumped.  So you can't win either way.

[conditionone]

 

It takes more than one step for most of us, so your finger can not be in the trigger guard when moving between boxes.

 

My gun is high and pointed at the next plate as I'm leaving box one, with my eyes on the next plate while moving.

My finger goes in the trigger guard as my right foot touches ground and my left foot is settling in. Definitely not fully stopped.

 

 

"using the same cadence (same delay between standby and beep) is one of the things that causes people to want to anticipate the beep and start early"

 

For sure. I feel that reaction time to the beep is part of the challenge.

 

 

[Gregg K]

4 hours ago, conditionone said:

"using the same cadence (same delay between standby and beep) is one of the things that causes people to want to anticipate the beep and start early"

For sure. I feel that reaction time to the beep is part of the challenge.

 

That may be but you are supposed to keep the same cadence for the shooter you are running as called for by the rules. If they jump the timer you award the earned procedural.

 

5.3.3 "Stand by" This command should be followed by the start signal within 1 to 4 seconds. It is recommended that the start signal be consistent for each string started for a given competitor—a cadence is desirable in Steel Challenge. The interval may change between competitors, however.

[motosapiens]

On 10/30/2019 at 7:06 PM, Gregg K said:

That may be but you are supposed to keep the same cadence for the shooter you are running as called for by the rules. If they jump the timer you award the earned procedural.

 

5.3.3 "Stand by" This command should be followed by the start signal within 1 to 4 seconds. It is recommended that the start signal be consistent for each string started for a given competitor—a cadence is desirable in Steel Challenge. The interval may change between competitors, however.

 

Hmm, I guess I don't really understand that. I don't think a cadence is desirable in steel challenge. No wonder some folks have problems with creeping or false starts. I think I will ignore that recommendation.

Edited November 1, 2019 by motosapiens

[Gregg K]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

that rule is about the dumbest thing I have read. I don't think a cadence is desirable in steel challenge. No wonder some folks have problems with creeping or false starts. I think I will ignore that recommendation.

I shoot at several different clubs and see this mindset a lot, I call it the "a la carte'' rulebook where you just pick the ones you like and ignore the rest. I personally think it's wrong to do so but you're not alone. 

[motosapiens]

10 hours ago, Gregg K said:

I shoot at several different clubs and see this mindset a lot, I call it the "a la carte'' rulebook where you just pick the ones you like and ignore the rest. I personally think it's wrong to do so but you're not alone. 

it's not a rule, just a recommendation, and a stupid one at that.

[Hoops]

8 hours ago, motosapiens said:

it's not a rule, just a recommendation, and a stupid one at that.

I believe we can all agree that Steel Challenge is not USPSA and both have separate rules.  It's when folks conflate the two back and forth that confusion sets in.  It is the RO's responsibility to fairly enforce the rules so that all squads on a given day are on a level basis.  

 

Whether a rule is deemed stupid or not should not give sway to the RO.   Habitually jumping the buzzer is easily rectified if a shooter persists in doing it.  Give a verbal warning to the shooter and next time assess the penalty.  Jacking with a buzzer count is much less punitive than the penalty.

 

I agree the rule includes the phrase of recommended but SCSA went on to offer further wording regarding cadence changes between shooter.  Consistent cadence is a fair and important element in Steel Challenge otherwise the rule.....in whole....would not be worded the way it is.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nso123]

2 hours ago, Hoops said:

I believe we can all agree that Steel Challenge is not USPSA and both have separate rules.  It's when folks conflate the two back and forth that confusion sets in.  It is the RO's responsibility to fairly enforce the rules so that all squads on a given day are on a level basis.  

 

Whether a rule is deemed stupid or not should not give sway to the RO.   Habitually jumping the buzzer is easily rectified if a shooter persists in doing it.  Give a verbal warning to the shooter and next time assess the penalty.  Jacking with a buzzer count is much less punitive than the penalty.

 

I agree the rule includes the phrase of recommended but SCSA went on to offer further wording regarding cadence changes between shooter.  Consistent cadence is a fair and important element in Steel Challenge otherwise the rule.....in whole....would not be worded the way it is.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is probably more of an issue at tier 1 matches since the RO is many times one of the squad members as well.  I found that everything was handled in a much more consistent manner at the tier 2 and above matches. 

[motosapiens]

15 hours ago, Hoops said:

I believe we can all agree that Steel Challenge is not USPSA and both have separate rules.  It's when folks conflate the two back and forth that confusion sets in.  It is the RO's responsibility to fairly enforce the rules so that all squads on a given day are on a level basis.  

 

Whether a rule is deemed stupid or not should not give sway to the RO.   Habitually jumping the buzzer is easily rectified if a shooter persists in doing it.  Give a verbal warning to the shooter and next time assess the penalty.  Jacking with a buzzer count is much less punitive than the penalty.

 

I agree the rule includes the phrase of recommended but SCSA went on to offer further wording regarding cadence changes between shooter.  Consistent cadence is a fair and important element in Steel Challenge otherwise the rule.....in whole....would not be worded the way it is.  

 

 

My opinion only, but i would say consistent cadence is *unfair*. I can't imagine why someone would come up with that recommendation. It's clearly an advantage to the shooter who is lucky enough to get a consistent start beep at the same cadence as the other commands, and a disadvantage to anyone who gets a longer delay before the start beep. If you just vary the delay a little on every string, every shooter will have to wait for the actual beep, and not try to time it or anticipate it.

 

but change my mind.... perhaps someone can explain to me how it is beneficial to vary the beep delay between shooters, but give each shooter a predictable cadence that can be anticipated? And is it really going to be the same level of consistency (and therefore ability to anticipate) for everyone? Is it easier to be consistent with a shorter delay, or with a longer one? Is there any recourse for the shooter who gets the longer delay, and likely more variability, and thus less ability to anticipate? 

 

Perhaps this is implemented differently than what I'm envisioning when I read it, and perhaps it makes more sense on the ground.

Edited November 1, 2019 by motosapiens