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Is this a DQ?


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RFPO competitor removes the pistol from case following RO "make ready" and places the pistol on the shooter's table.  Competitor removes the magazines from the pistol case and places them on the table in front of the pistol muzzle (which is, of course, pointed downrange.  At no time while handling the magazines did the competitor touch the pistol.  It certainly would be a DQ if the shooter was handling the gun, loaded or unloaded, but what rule or lack thereof applies in this case?  I know when the rifle or pistol is in the case a hand can be in front of the muzzle if the firearm is not being touched at the same time.

 

From a general safety standpoint this should be as safe as going downrange when firearms have been unloaded, bolt/slide back and left untouched on the bench, but I have no opinion regarding the handling of the scenario described above and I'm not the culprit.

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8.1.1.6 in the steel challenge rule book states that during the course of fire you cannot be swept or pointed at.  The only exception is when you are bagging or un bagging your firearm and not while touching the gun.

Edited by Edge40
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How would that differ from a shooter unbagging... but not touching the gun itself... who sweeps when they unzip the bag? The gun wasn't being touched. Just magazines placed on the table?

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2 hours ago, GOF said:

How would that differ from a shooter unbagging... but not touching the gun itself... who sweeps when they unzip the bag? The gun wasn't being touched. Just magazines placed on the table?

 

The differences I see are that the firearm is in a case (trigger is covered), and there is an exception written into the rules.

 

        8.1.1.6 Sweeping or pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person’s body during the course of fire.  If the firearm is in a case and not in the competitor’s hands, sweeping does not apply.  Reaching forward of the muzzle of a cased firearm to close the case is not a sweeping infraction, provided the competitor’s hands are completely clear of the firearm itself.  

 

 

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Perhaps 8.1.1.6 should be  slightly modified to also allow "sweeping" whenever the gun is cased.  In the situation I described the competitor had uncased the handgun and placed it on the outside of the case, but it's not unusual for someone to unzip and leave the gun cased.  My advice to the competitor in this situation is to not set the magazines in front of the muzzle, period.

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3 hours ago, ZackJones said:

DQ for sweeping would be my call.

 

+1.

 

After Make Ready you are IN the COF.  ICHDH ends the COF.  8.1.1.6 is clear and specific  No sweeping during the COF.  It also says you cannot sweep yourself or anyone else with a cased gun.  How much clearer can you make it?

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When the Make Ready command is given... according to the above... you are in the COF. OK, so at the Make Ready a shooter unzips their case and their hand crosses the muzzle without their touching the gun. Since the Make Ready has been given the shooter is in the COF at that time. But they don't sweep themselves by the quoted Rule. Yet, a gun laying on the table, already removed from the bag, and without the shooter touching or moving the gun, does result in a sweep.

Are not these two situations so similar, for all practical purposes regarding safety, that to make one a DQ and the other not a DQ is somewhat contradictory and a bit confusing? I understand the Rule. I just fail to see the practical value... or commonsense... of one circumstance being a DQ and the other not.  

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The difference is the trigger is accessible.  You cannot get to it while the gun is in the case.  You can when it is lying on the table.  Therefore, the DQ.  If your hand is on the gun while inside the case and you sweep- DQ.  Reason?  The trigger is accessible.

Edited by zzt
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17 hours ago, zzt said:

The difference is the trigger is accessible.  You cannot get to it while the gun is in the case.  You can when it is lying on the table.  Therefore, the DQ.  If your hand is on the gun while inside the case and you sweep- DQ.  Reason?  The trigger is accessible.

Thank you for that. I now see the difference. The term "trigger is accessible" clarifies it.

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Well, I'm going to stick my neck out and state my opinion. And it's probably contrary to a lot of the people here. I think we make WAY too much of this "sweeping" thing. I believe we don't use a lot of common sense when we get so paranoid about sweeping with an empty gun not even being touched. It's an inanimate object. It can't see a hand in front of it and decide to shoot. As for it being accessible, that means nothing IMO. We trust someone to stand beside us and load the gun and start shooting, so why can't we trust that he will not pick up the object and do something with it. What I don't know since it's unloaded anyway.

I fully expect I'll be lambasted by some here, and tarred and feathered if they could. There'll be all sorts of reasons why I should never be allowed at a shoot again, but that's just my opinion.

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24 minutes ago, egd5 said:

Well, I'm going to stick my neck out and state my opinion. And it's probably contrary to a lot of the people here. I think we make WAY too much of this "sweeping" thing. I believe we don't use a lot of common sense when we get so paranoid about sweeping with an empty gun not even being touched. It's an inanimate object. It can't see a hand in front of it and decide to shoot. As for it being accessible, that means nothing IMO. We trust someone to stand beside us and load the gun and start shooting, so why can't we trust that he will not pick up the object and do something with it. What I don't know since it's unloaded anyway.

I fully expect I'll be lambasted by some here, and tarred and feathered if they could. There'll be all sorts of reasons why I should never be allowed at a shoot again, but that's just my opinion.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you still have to follow the rules. Don't point guns at stuff you don't intend to shoot. That doesn't seem overly complicated.

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I didn't plan to respond to anything because I don't want an argument, but, respectfully,  there's a difference between pointing a gun at something and letting your hand cross in front of it lying on a table/barrel.

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6 minutes ago, egd5 said:

I didn't plan to respond to anything because I don't want an argument, but, respectfully,  there's a difference between pointing a gun at something and letting your hand cross in front of it lying on a table/barrel.

 In my mind there is literally no difference between the two. 

 A few thoughts.

  If YOU didn’t clear the gun or at least see it cleared with your own eyes you have no idea if it’s clear or loaded. 

  Even then I am still uneasy with being in front of the muzzle.

  I personally had an incident this weekend with this very thing . I was running a PCC shooter on a stage with an unloaded table start. He prepped the gun, dropped the hammer and laid it on table under my direct supervision. I KNEW it was clear. A piece of steel fell and before I knew it another shooter moved forward to reset it. Before I realized it there was a shooter right in front of the muzzle. My heart nearly skipped a beat when I caught it but the safest thing to do was not touch it. Then the steel fell again but this time I had the shooter go muzzle up before anyone went down range.

  Huge blunder on my part but I think it shows the importance of never being in front of a muzzle.

  Try this test. Go to your gun bag and get your pistol out , point it at your head and pull the trigger. Hmmm... does that bother you? It should.

 

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3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

You are entitled to your opinion, but you still have to follow the rules. Don't point guns at stuff you don't intend to shoot. That doesn't seem overly complicated.

Actually, egd5 raised a good... dare I say it... commonsense point. It takes a finger to pull a trigger. That finger is attached to a hand. If the hand/finger is not contacting the gun... especially when it has already been RO checked to assure it is unloaded... how is the trigger on the gun going to be pulled? A gun in hand, moving and sweeping the shooter or others --- yes! An inanimate, unloaded gun, laying on a table? What? Are we talking about the  old movie "The Exorcist"? Or a recent episode of the "X-Files"?

 

When you actually look closely... and think about it... 50% OF USPSA shooters could be called for sweeping themselves when holstering after the Make Ready command.

Watch! If you look close you can see the gun actually sweeping a butt or a foot. And, that's a loaded gun in hand.

I realize that commonsense isn't an overly popular subject. But, at some point it truly does need to rear its Ugly Head.

 

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2 minutes ago, GOF said:

When you actually look closely... and think about it... 50% OF USPSA shooters could be called for sweeping themselves when holstering after the Make Ready command.

Watch! If you look close you can see the gun actually sweeping a butt or a foot. And, that's a loaded gun in hand.

 

but it's specifically allowed by the rules, and for a sensible reason, it's difficult to holster *without* sweeping yourself. OTOH, it's very easy to put magazines on a table near a gun without sweeping yourself.

 

the operating principle isn't "don't point guns at stuff you don't want to shoot unless the gun is unloaded" it's "don't point guns at stuff you don't want to shoot (if you can possibly avoid it)".

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24 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

but it's specifically allowed by the rules, and for a sensible reason, it's difficult to holster *without* sweeping yourself. OTOH, it's very easy to put magazines on a table near a gun without sweeping yourself.

 

the operating principle isn't "don't point guns at stuff you don't want to shoot unless the gun is unloaded" it's "don't point guns at stuff you don't want to shoot (if you can possibly avoid it)".

You have got to be kidding! You mean it's OK to sweep yourself if you're holstering a loaded handgun that is in your hand, while at any other time & circumstance it's an immediate DQ. Yet, with that allowed, you can get DQed for nothing more than putting a magazine in front of the muzzle of an unloaded handgun laying on a bench?

At what point does commonsense need to rear its head?

Did USPSA import a bunch of Washington D.C. Bureaucrats to write this stuff? Or, are some Rules... and your apparent justification of them... just plain dumb?

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common sense = 'not supported by any kind of empirical data, but it *feels* good'

 

sounds like you disagree with the rules. I appreciate your thoughts. Perhaps if you have a method of holstering that doesn't involve sweeping your lower body, you could write it up and see if we could the rules changed.

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3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

common sense = 'not supported by any kind of empirical data, but it *feels* good'

 

sounds like you disagree with the rules. I appreciate your thoughts. Perhaps if you have a method of holstering that doesn't involve sweeping your lower body, you could write it up and see if we could the rules changed.

I have no disagreement with the holstering rules. My disagreement is with the "sweeping" call on an unloaded gun, not in a shooter's hand, and laying as an inanimate metal/steel/polymer object on a table.

Perhaps you could display some commonsense and write up something about the gun on the table... using a level of commonsense that I have yet to see in your previous posts... and maybe see if we could get the Rules changed.

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Just now, GOF said:

Perhaps you could display some commonsense and write up something about the gun on the table... using a level of commonsense that I have yet to see in your previous posts... and maybe see if we could get the Rules changed.

 

you seem to be taking this very personally.  I don't know that I feel all that strongly about a dq for putting your hand in front of the muzzle, but I think it is consistent (and common sense) to simply avoid sweeping yourself whenever it is reasonably possible, even if the gun is lying on a table. If you just never sweep yourself when it is avoidable, you (and the RO) won't have to be constantly thinking about whether the gun is loaded or not, or whether the trigger is accessible or not. 

 

many people think that the traditional 4 firearms safety rules are 'common sense', and allowing yourself to be swept by a gun you believe to be unloaded clearly violates 2 of them. If that is not absolutely necessary, why do it? why allow it?

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7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

you seem to be taking this very personally.  I don't know that I feel all that strongly about a dq for putting your hand in front of the muzzle, but I think it is consistent (and common sense) to simply avoid sweeping yourself whenever it is reasonably possible, even if the gun is lying on a table. If you just never sweep yourself when it is avoidable, you (and the RO) won't have to be constantly thinking about whether the gun is loaded or not, or whether the trigger is accessible or not. 

 

many people think that the traditional 4 firearms safety rules are 'common sense', and allowing yourself to be swept by a gun you believe to be unloaded clearly violates 2 of them. If that is not absolutely necessary, why do it? why allow it?

Your comment "to simply avoid sweeping yourself whenever it is reasonably possible" .... and... "If you just never sweep yourself when it is avoidable"... shows the kind of mindset that says it's OK to sweep yourself here, with a loaded gun in your hand, but not here with an unloaded gun that isn't in your hand.

I'm sure that's comforting to the shooter who the RO said swept themselves by inadvertently passing their hand in front of an empty gun on a table, while watching shooters sweep themselves as they holster a loaded gun that is in their hand.

What is Sweeping? Who goes to Dairy Queen, and who gets to finish the match for score?

By your twisted logic, all a shooter would have to say is "It wasn't reasonably possible to avoid sweeping myself and it wasn't avoidable." That solves it all!

Which, IMHO, makes all "sweeping DQ calls" far more subjective than objective.   

 

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1 hour ago, GOF said:

 

 

I was going to respond to several of your points, but you are too worked up about this.  Think of it as avoiding a judgement call.  Sweeping any part of your body except the lower extremities while holstering is a DQ.  Even then, the safety must be on and the finger clearly outside the trigger.  There is no judgement involved.  The RO doesn't have to think about extenuating circumstances.. It's the rule.  It's a DQ.

 

USPSA rules apply unless specifically countermanded by an SCSA rule.  Uncasing your gun an placing it on the table is a very, very bad practice that could have consequences other than sweeping.  Suppose you drop a mag and go to pick it up.  You are farther than 3' from the gun, so DQ.

 

BTW, I have my holster set up so that no part of my body is swept while holstering and unholstering.  In SCSA I do not unzip a case past the muzzle, so there is no way I can sweep myself when uncasing or casing unless I do something really stupid.

Edited by zzt
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28 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

I was going to respond to several of your points, but you are too worked up about this.  Think of it as avoiding a judgement call.  Sweeping any part of your body except the lower extremities while holstering is a DQ.  Even then, the safety must be on and the finger clearly outside the trigger.  There is no judgement involved.  The RO doesn't have to think about extenuating circumstances.. It's the rule.  It's a DQ.

 

USPSA rules apply unless specifically countermanded by an SCSA rule.  Uncasing your gun an placing it on the table is a very, very bad practice that could have consequences other than sweeping.  Suppose you drop a mag and go to pick it up.  You are farther than 3' from the gun, so DQ.

 

BTW, I have my holster set up so that no part of my body is swept while holstering and unholstering.  In SCSA I do not unzip a case past the muzzle, so there is no way I can sweep myself when uncasing or casing unless I do something really stupid.

It would seem that you are aware of arbitrary judgement DQ calls. As listed above, Rule 8.1.1.6 says if the gun is in a case then sweeping yourself by fully unzipping the case does not apply. Yet, you note you don't unzip the case fully past the muzzle (and I do the same). I guess both of us are guarding ourselves from rookie ROs who do not know all rules and procedures.

As an example... I shot a SCSA six stage club match today with  GM RFRO shooter on my squad who also shot a major Sectional a bit south of there 2 days before. He had to reshoot a number of strings on several stages because the timer didn't pick up his CCI Standard Velocity rounds. The reason was because the RO was holding the timer over his head and behind the shooter. The GM explained where the timer should be held. The RO decided he knew better and ignored the advice (and this GM ROs three or four club matches a month, with a heavy RFRO crowd, and knows what he's doing).

Inexperienced RO convinced of his "vast knowledge", and status. That happens. Is that why you don't fully unzip your gun case when Rule 8.1.1.6 clearly says you can?

How much "defensive shooting" do we have to do to accommodate ROs who don't know the Rules. Or to guard ourselves against what could be accurately described as "arbitrary & capricious rules"?

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, GOF said:

By your twisted logic, all a shooter would have to say is "It wasn't reasonably possible to avoid sweeping myself and it wasn't avoidable." That solves it all!

Which, IMHO, makes all "sweeping DQ calls" far more subjective than objective.   

 

umm. no, actually, we have rules. I was trying to explain why (imho) the rules are the way they are.

 

It appears to me that the rules were specifically written to *avoid* subjectivity that is avoidable.

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34 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

It appears to me that the rules were specifically written to *avoid* subjectivity that is avoidable.

 

Absolutely.

 

1 hour ago, GOF said:

How much "defensive shooting" do we have to do to accommodate

 

None.  There is no shooting involved.  I do those things to make sure the RO dosn't have to even come close to making a judgement call.  As far as I'm concerned, it is 'best practices'.  I RO A LOT, and appreciate that in a shooter..  SCSA is easy.  ROing USPSA is a lot tougher.  There are a lot more rules, and a lot more judgement calls.

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