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Classifiers for Level II Matches


Chrisperkins027

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7 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Exactly.  Don’t knock others bad taste. 
 

Seriously, I don’t have a single plaque on the wall. But some do. I’m not gonna go over to their house and tell them they suck and their wife is ugly!  

 

I have mine up from this year up without shame. Last year I shot lots of matches with little consistent practice. This year lots of consistent practice with less local matches and more majors. It was a good feeling to know that the algorithm i'm currently utilizing is better than the previous but the plaque didn't provide more justification than just my placement itself. Also, it gives visual confirmation to my wife that I was indeed where i said I was 😂😂😂

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1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

 

that's where we differ. All my friends (and mrs moto too) will tell you that I ruthlessly make fun of them for giving a f*# about class  'wins'.  But I do it while pouring them a homebrew, not while kicking them in the nuts.

You’re not going to go over to a strangers house, someone who’s new or physically limited, and tell them they’re lame for having a B class win plaque on the wall. 
 

 

A buddy,... maybe.  Ok probably. I actually would too. But not folks like I listed above!  If you do, you probably walk thru the mall and tell the toddlers Santa isn’t real!  Monster!

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1 minute ago, B_RAD said:

You’re not going to go over to a strangers house, someone who’s new or physically limited, and tell them they’re lame for having a B class win plaque on the wall. 
 

 

A buddy,... maybe.  Ok probably. I actually would too. But not folks like I listed above!  If you do, you probably walk thru the mall and tell the toddlers Santa isn’t real!  Monster!

crap he just asked to bring some beers over to my house later 😳😳

 

😂😂😂

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2 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

You’re not going to go over to a strangers house, someone who’s new or physically limited, and tell them they’re lame for having a B class win plaque on the wall. 

 

I'm a super nice and considerate guy, so I would probably wait until after we had a couple beers. 

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40 minutes ago, Chrisperkins027 said:

 


I would respectfully disagree. Having a classifier in every level 2 match would force those trying to win a class or division to shoot their very best on every stage or risk losing the place they had hoped to achieve. It would also provide some remedy for those shooters who get an initial classification and then never go to local matches.


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Wrong,

the classification system rewards pushing the limits, and most of the High Hit Factors take that into account (division dependent) most M and A class shooters (not all) got there by pushing hard on classifiers and either getting a good run or tanking hard enough for it not to count against them. at a L2+ match most shooters will not be pushing to 100% because the crash counts against their match and they likely value that score more.

 

if you want to stop the hero or zero system we have make all classifiers count all the time and your class can float up and down,

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2 hours ago, Chrisperkins027 said:

So what you’re saying here is that only the overall division winners matter? If that’s the case then those of us lower class shooters (the bulk of the shooters) don’t matter. If that’s the case then this becomes a sport that only the pros can compete in and would largely fall to a spectator sport. I was under the impression that the sport existed to support the love of shooting and the 2nd Amendment and to acknowledge shooters of all levels. Pretty sure if it only consisted of Ms and GMs there would be no sport.

 

 

I'm with moto on this one.  And, yes, only the overall division win actually matters.  That's the win, not the shooter.  All the shooters competing matter, but the GM, M, A, B, C, D, and U classifications and class wins do not actually matter.  It just doesn't mean anything concrete.  The shooters matter, as they are the sport, but the classifications don't because it's just an imperfect side show some people have fun with.

 

So have fun with it as it is.  No matter how many corrections are made to it it will never be perfect and the belly aching will never stop.  This is proven fact.  

 

When the match is over, you know how you did irrespective of class finish and you know the skill level of the people shooting around you.  If you're worried about prize table or contingency play the classification game and cleverly select your matches.  If you're worried about improving and pushing yourself, shoot the match and forget about others.

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every place in the overall matters imho, especially if it was better than last time, or if I beat some guys I never beat before. I remember when just getting into the upper half of the Limited field meant I had a good day. Way more important than how I did against other people who also haven't practiced enough to get bumped up.

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When I first stated I wanted to win my class but I really wanted to not get beat by anyone in the classes below me. 
 
 
And now that I think about it, that’s exactly what I still want!  
the individuality of this sport is what makes it awesome. im tired of team sports. I get out what I put in only

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Wrong,
the classification system rewards pushing the limits, and most of the High Hit Factors take that into account (division dependent) most M and A class shooters (not all) got there by pushing hard on classifiers and either getting a good run or tanking hard enough for it not to count against them. at a L2+ match most shooters will not be pushing to 100% because the crash counts against their match and they likely value that score more.
 
if you want to stop the hero or zero system we have make all classifiers count all the time and your class can float up and down,


Ok I hear what you’re saying. IMO if you have an A class shooters that shows up to a local match and goes 100% to get his A class but then goes to a level II that has a classifier and only goes 90% on the classifier and shoots a B class classifier then he is a B class shooter that only goes fast at matches that don’t matter. Again just my opinion.


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38 minutes ago, Chrisperkins027 said:

 


Ok I hear what you’re saying. IMO if you have an A class shooters that shows up to a local match and goes 100% to get his A class but then goes to a level II that has a classifier and only goes 90% on the classifier and shoots a B class classifier then he is a B class shooter that only goes fast at matches that don’t matter. Again just my opinion.
 

 

 

it's more like a consistently good shooter at a big match goes at 100% of the speed he can call acceptable shots, whereas if he wants to move up a class with most of the older classifiers, he actually has to go *faster* than he can reliably shoot, and take some chances, and hook up sometimes, and crash and burn other times. Most good shooters don't want to crash and burn at big matches, so they shoot at 100% of the speed they are capable of consistently shooting.

 

Classifiers are one way of determining how good someone is. Another way would be to observe their performance in big matches. If a B shooter is consistently in the middle of the A's and beating some of the M's, then some people might say he's an A shooter that doesn't take chances on classifiers and go for the hero/zero in order to move up.

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On 10/23/2019 at 4:01 PM, motosapiens said:

 

Most good shooters don't want to crash and burn at big matches, so they shoot at 100% of the speed they are capable of consistently shooting.

 

 

 

 

This is exactly my approach to Nationals this year...shoot as fast as I feel I can and be consistent.

 

It worked....for me. No huge mistakes. A very long drive to crash and burn.

 

Very well said...monosapiens

 

 

My 2 cents....

 

Id rather be 7th B than 1st C

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On 10/23/2019 at 8:19 AM, Chrisperkins027 said:

Only if you have 50 shooters in the division and 3 GMs. Some divisions rarely see 50 shooters in a match. 

What wonderkid came up with 50?  >30 is used for a normal distribution. Did USPSA do a Bayesian analyses?  I tend to doubt. 
 

30 is more than enough. Normalize the data: subtract the mean and divide by the standard deviation for you Z value. Then look it up. So simple. And you don’t need >30 in the sample size. 
Ooops. 

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What wonderkid came up with 50?  >30 is used for a normal distribution. Did USPSA do a Bayesian analyses?  I tend to doubt. 
 
30 is more than enough. Normalize the data: subtract the mean and divide by the standard deviation for you Z value. Then look it up. So simple. And you don’t need >30 in the sample size. 
Ooops. 



I agree. I think 30 would be quite sufficient.


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On 10/25/2019 at 7:42 PM, pjb45 said:

What wonderkid came up with 50?  >30 is used for a normal distribution. Did USPSA do a Bayesian analyses?  I tend to doubt. 
 

30 is more than enough. Normalize the data: subtract the mean and divide by the standard deviation for you Z value. Then look it up. So simple. And you don’t need >30 in the sample size
Ooops. 

50 in division with 3 GMs finishing at 90+% is the criteria for a match score to count as a classifier 

 

I agree that 50 is probably a little too big a number (especially with 8 divisions) also having 40, C and D shooters doesn't make the HHF (match winning score) set most likely by one of the M's or GM's any more accurate.  it would probably be better to look at the classification's of those finishing in the top 10%  

 

Look at last years Limited + Revo Nationals 

Revo had 7 GMs finish 90% +

Limited had 5 GMs and a U finish 90% + 

 

Limited had 282 shooters Revo had 26 should the fact that Limited had 257 more shooters that were not competitive matter in regards to the match counting towards classification?

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  1. I suspect that by only looking at the top ten percent you are not getting a normal distribution. 
  2. In my opinion, classifiers allow us to quantified/measure ourselves through standardized/controlled scenarios.  
  3. Every sport has statistics. Those measurements do not necessarily determine who is victorious.  
  4. I believe if you want to accurately measure yourself against the population we need to have a classifier in every match.
  5. Statistically;
  • A match is a sample.  
  • The classification is population. 
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5 hours ago, pjb45 said:
  1. I suspect that by only looking at the top ten percent you are not getting a normal distribution
  2. In my opinion, classifiers allow us to quantified/measure ourselves through standardized/controlled scenarios.  
  3. Every sport has statistics. Those measurements do not necessarily determine who is victorious.  
  4. I believe if you want to accurately measure yourself against the population we need to have a classifier in every match.
  5. Statistically;
  • A match is a sample.  
  • The classification is population. 

I think I understand what your saying about the system as a whole, I was mainly looking at the requirements that are currently in place for a match to count towards your classification.

I understand why we don't want a B class SS shooter to win a L2 match with 4 other C and D class SS shooters and have them all receive their match % as a classifier entry, but if a division at a L2 had 6 GMs in the top 10% but only 25 shooters total what would make their score less deserving of being included in their classification than another division at the same match that had 3 GMs in the to 10% and 50 shooters total?  my point is for classification purposes we only really need to know that we have a high enough match winning score to ensure that everyone's match % is a valid representation of their skill that day.

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USPSA HQ doesn't really do statistics.

Just after the change that allowed 8 shot minor in revo, HQ told me "I wish the top shooters would get out there and shoot some classifiers."

The problem with the classifier system is that we base everything on what someone has actually shot. The high hit factor should be set 2 standard deviations higher than the average hit factor. This would mean that 99.8% of the classifiers shot would score less than 100%. You don't need 10 GM's to set the HHF, you just need a statistically valid number of shooters.

For matches there is probably a statistically valid way to do it, but that's well beyond me. My statistics class was 25 years ago.


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Mike and Pat

IMO you articulate the issues.

Pat, like you my classes were a long time ago but; I worked in an applied government scientific research agency for almost 8 years, an applied research university for almost three years, excess graduate hours in statistics and data analysis such that they waive my research methodology for my graduate program. Then I worked as a management consultant for Deloitte.

I know enough to know what I don’t know( which is a lot!).

 

Regardless of the good intentions of the older and newer mentality of the classification system it is woefully abysmal. 


Mike, in statistics there is a concept of normalized data which might address your concerns. 

 

Personally I think the fundamental concepts of statistics are beyond the current administration (probably me also) ability hence the classifier system premise SUCKS. 
It won’t get better without real data analysts and statistics gurus getting involved- like a PhD. 
Just slam Mike he is probably too stupid to accurately articulate the problem statement. 
 

 

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On 10/23/2019 at 12:42 PM, Rnlinebacker said:

 

Epitome of a response indicating people need vindication for "getting better" via prizes or as they are called...participation trophies. Again, cool that matches can give them away but I competed in bunch of matches this year and never once thought "Better work hard for those prizes this year" lol. I even managed to finish top 3 in my class at A6, A7 and a sectional. Got the plaque and thought "I'm on the right track". Maybe at A6 & A7 the competitors above me were sandbagging. I didn't get in my feelings about it. If they can game the system then so be it.

 

I played division 1 college football so I know about people gaming the system for real via PEDs and how that is truly unfair. This is a weekend hobby for the majority of our membership. Please take this air hug if sandbaggers are hurting your feelings.

 

And again you make up emotional responses, ascribe them to me, and then act condescending based on what you made up in your mind.  Do you think that means anything to anyone else?

 

Anyway, back to the point:  I did not say "prizes" are the vindication, I said that it is well-known what motivation in small, recognized steps works best for most people in terms of them working on getting better.  Hence my comment about classification wins (which, I'll note, are different from "prizes.")  If you want to call them "participation trophies" (as does moto) you certainly can---but research on motivation out there pretty much shows that you don't seem to understand the concept at all, and don't know what you are talking about.

 

I'll note:  Giving yourself as an example is a sample of one---and given that you think an example of obvious sandbagging (by your own admission) is hilarious, I'm thinking your example isn't particularly relevant to the majority of shooters, and definitely isn't representative.

 

Moto said:

Quote

Nonetheless, if people need the strokes, i think class plaques or trophies are fine. I think attaching valuable prizes to those plaques is dumb and encourages unsportsmanlike behavior.

 

I'll note I agree with this---I personally think that class plaques are a good idea, AND I don't think that prizes should be attached to them.  And I agree that having prizes attached to them encourages unsportsmanlike conduct.

 

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To me the thing about classifiers is, are they a valid test of uspsa shooting. IMO, some are some aren't. The ones where you can just stand there and shoot are relatively easy even for old farts like me. And now that I have a JP instead of the Colt pcc I did have, even reloads are SO much quicker and easier.

If a person does mostly those that don't require much movement they can go up a fair amount in classification. But does that really test the movement and stage planning and execution of most uspsa stages? It seems to me--not.

Of course, I don't have a better system. That's just my observation.

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Whenever this topic comes up I'm reminded of the amateur ski racing points system, which I was involved in when I was a teenager. I'll post the overview below in case anyone wants to read it. Basically, you score points from every race you enter (like a classification score) based how hard the race course was, how many seconds you finished off the winner, and how good of a racer the winner is.  Every race provides the opportunity of scoring points whether it's a weekend club race or the state championship.  You're ranking (classification) is an aggregate of these points. https://my.ussa.org/alpine-programs/parents/ski-racing-101/points

 

That being said, I think the system is fine the way it is. If you want to think of your class win as an accomplishment you can. If you want to ignore it and think of your division win as an accomplishment you can. If you want to shoot pcc and make up a high overall win you can.  USPSA is what you make of it.

Edited by ajblack
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2 hours ago, ajblack said:

Whenever this topic comes up I'm reminded of the amateur ski racing points system, which I was involved in when I was a teenager. I'll post the overview below in case anyone wants to read it. Basically, you score points from every race you enter (like a classification score) based how hard the race course was, how many seconds you finished off the winner, and how good of a racer the winner is.  Every race provides the opportunity of scoring points whether it's a weekend club race or the state championship.  You're ranking (classification) is an aggregate of these points. https://my.ussa.org/alpine-programs/parents/ski-racing-101/points

 

That being said, I think the system is fine the way it is. If you want to think of your class win as an accomplishment you can. If you want to ignore it and think of your division win as an accomplishment you can. If you want to shoot pcc and make up a high overall win you can.  USPSA is what you make of it.

I always thought NASTAR was a great concept. I think It started when I was in high school.  I was not much of a racer more of a steep and deep skier (Taos-50% Black/Double Black)

 

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On 10/29/2019 at 11:18 AM, Thomas H said:

 

And again you make up emotional responses, ascribe them to me, and then act condescending based on what you made up in your mind.  Do you think that means anything to anyone else?

 

Anyway, back to the point:  I did not say "prizes" are the vindication, I said that it is well-known what motivation in small, recognized steps works best for most people in terms of them working on getting better.  Hence my comment about classification wins (which, I'll note, are different from "prizes.")  If you want to call them "participation trophies" (as does moto) you certainly can---but research on motivation out there pretty much shows that you don't seem to understand the concept at all, and don't know what you are talking about.

 

I'll note:  Giving yourself as an example is a sample of one---and given that you think an example of obvious sandbagging (by your own admission) is hilarious, I'm thinking your example isn't particularly relevant to the majority of shooters, and definitely isn't representative.

 

Moto said:

 

I'll note I agree with this---I personally think that class plaques are a good idea, AND I don't think that prizes should be attached to them.  And I agree that having prizes attached to them encourages unsportsmanlike conduct.

 

 

Oh gosh still fake outraging about seeking your vindication of success via class wins I see. If your match percentages are not improving over time than your class wins are useless especially if the pool of competitors is lowly to begin with especially at the top. The goal is always to improve one's total match percentage and IF that ends up winning you something, good. The opposite is not as true. There should be an oversight committee made to police sandbagging let me know how it works out

Edited by Rnlinebacker
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