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Classifiers for Level II Matches


Chrisperkins027

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9 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

That's only one specific example of a person.  Don't get me wrong, most sandbaggers get absolutely nothing out of it other than people making fun of them.  But every one in awhile, someone sandbags in such a way to pull quite a few prizes, that should have been won by other people.  It does happen.

 

There is an easy way to fix that perceived problem.... Stop celebrating lack of competence.

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3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

right, and the problem is pretending that a class 'win' is a thing deserving of prizes.

First, you said people complaining about sandbagging are just mad cause they sandbagged worse. Which is false. 
 

regardless if you think B class winner should get a prize, that’s how it’s done at matches.  So, someone that’s more skilled hiding in a lower class is lame. 

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There is an easy way to fix that perceived problem.... Stop celebrating lack of competence.


So what you’re saying here is that only the overall division winners matter? If that’s the case then those of us lower class shooters (the bulk of the shooters) don’t matter. If that’s the case then this becomes a sport that only the pros can compete in and would largely fall to a spectator sport. I was under the impression that the sport existed to support the love of shooting and the 2nd Amendment and to acknowledge shooters of all levels. Pretty sure if it only consisted of Ms and GMs there would be no sport.


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28 minutes ago, Rnlinebacker said:

We don't go to these matches for prizes but rather to compete. The prizes are a bonus if they are available. There are less sandbaggers than you're making it seem

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You may not but someone who’s new or limited by some other factor might. 
 

just because it doesn’t happen in every division, class and at every match doesn’t mean it’s not a thing. 

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4 minutes ago, Chrisperkins027 said:

 


So what you’re saying here is that only the overall division winners matter? If that’s the case then those of us lower class shooters (the bulk of the shooters) don’t matter. If that’s the case then this becomes a sport that only the pros can compete in and would largely fall to a spectator sport. I was under the impression that the sport existed to support the love of shooting and the 2nd Amendment and to acknowledge shooters of all levels. Pretty sure if it only consisted of Ms and GMs there would be no sport.

 

 

no, what i'm saying is that class 'winners' don't matter, and in fact are bad for the sport. They lead to some people intentionally sandbagging, and lots of others just hoping they won't get bumped up a class before whatever major match they're targeting. Lame. The idea should be to get better, period.

 

I don't win my division, but that doesn't take anything away from my desire to improve at shooting. If someone needs to pretend they 'won' in order to be motivated, I don't really care, but I think it's lame to attach valuable prizes to that pretense. Just give out a participation plaque and be done with it.

Edited by motosapiens
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15 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

Often at Area matches and so on, people who win class awards go to the prize table before other folks.

 

As an example, if there was a guy who use to shoot Production, was a B in Production, yet beat A and M class shooters in major matches and continually walked the prize table with that class win, he would win a number of things.  And if that guy, once he was forcibly reclassed into a higher classification in Production, then switched to Carry Optics, then shot as a B-class in Carry Optics (even though he placed high beating As and Ms at Area matches and indeed, at Nationals), he would then still continue to walk the prize table early with his B-class wins.

 

That's only one specific example of a person.  Don't get me wrong, most sandbaggers get absolutely nothing out of it other than people making fun of them.  But every one in awhile, someone sandbags in such a way to pull quite a few prizes, that should have been won by other people.  It does happen.

The only prize table people were allowed to go based on finish was Nationals this year. A5, 6, 7 and 8 were random prize giveaways if i remember correctly. So were the sectional matches i attended. If competitors are needy for things off the prize table I suggest saving up and buying them. The point of the matches was you guessed it, the match. Literally, only Luke sandbagged this year and I thought it was hilarious. I'm not mad at him for practicing really hard and crushing souls all year. I don't know what his or any other competitors time and budget constraints are. Let's with the self-righteousness. It's a game..that's not real. No one cares on Monday at work lol

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7 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

You may not but someone who’s new or limited by some other factor might. 
 

just because it doesn’t happen in every division, class and at every match doesn’t mean it’s not a thing. 

tell them to make better life decisions and not shoot the match at all if they are relying on the match to win a prize because of finances😂😂

Edited by Rnlinebacker
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5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

There is an easy way to fix that perceived problem.... Stop celebrating lack of competence.

SMH. There’s many reasons why someone winning a class is something to be proud of. 
 

“Lack of competence” 

 

sounds like you’ve decided that the bar that separates this “lack” is under your current level of skill. 

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At an Area 1 match several years ago a Canadian shooter won 1st in C Limited and finished 16th overall in Limited. Places 2, 3, and 4 in C Limited finished 49, 50, and 51st overall and very tightly grouped in points in Limited. I just happened to be the guy in 4th C Limited and 51st overall. That 16th overall caught our attention and we were informed by the shooter in 2nd C and 49th overall Limited (also Canadian) that the C Limited winner was actually Master class in Canada and had shot only 4 US classifiers - two of which were Master level and two of which were tanked and in the teens, averaged out to high C class in Limited. So, he showed up at Area 1 and beat up on the rest of C class Limited. Did he game the system - yes, but what did it really get him besides beating up on shooters he should not have been in with? Thing was, he did not even bother to stick around for awards. This kind of thing happens all the time at majors and I am not sure there is a cure within the current system. That was years ago and it still rankles me a bit that I did not get a 3rd place in class award that I would have all things being equal. Guess this all boils down to the "integrity" of the other shooters which there is little control of.

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no, what i'm saying is that class 'winners' don't matter, and in fact are bad for the sport.
 
I don't win my division, but that doesn't take anything away from my desire to improve at shooting. If someone needs to pretend they 'won' in order to be motivated, I don't really care, but I think it's lame to attach valuable prizes to that pretense. Just give out a participation plaque and be done with it.



That’s what I said apparently we lower class shooters don’t matter and under your long of thought should remove ourselves from the sport until such a time we are deemed worthy enough to compete for overall spots. This is dangerous to the sport. And as far as prizes go you seem to be getting your wish as prize tables are becoming rare. I’ve been to two level II matches this year that had no prize tables and instead handed out checks to division winners. Class trophies are still a valuable form of motivation for many shooters as they feel like they have accomplished something.


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2 minutes ago, Rnlinebacker said:

tell them to make better life decisions and not shoot the match at all if they are relying on the match to win a prize because of finances😂😂

Ok. 
 

Make better life decisions.  “hey man, don’t age”. 

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4 minutes ago, Chrisperkins027 said:

 

 


That’s what I said apparently we lower class shooters don’t matter and under your long of thought should remove ourselves from the sport until such a time we are deemed worthy enough to compete for overall spots. 

 

 

 

I didn't say anything of the sort. You seem to be under the impression that the only thing that counts is 'winning'. I don't believe that, so I don't feel any need to pretend I won by dividing people up into groups until I find a sufficiently watered down group that I can 'win'. To me, looking above me in the results and improving my percentage of the winner (or of known very good shooters) is way more important than looking below me in the results and being able to find the right group of less-skilled shooters so I can say I 'won' by beating them.

 

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Class trophies are still a valuable form of motivation for many shooters as they feel like they have accomplished something.

I don't have any issue with class trophies. They don't bother me, and they apparently make some people feel better.

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5 minutes ago, Chrisperkins027 said:

 

 


That’s what I said apparently we lower class shooters don’t matter and under your long of thought should remove ourselves from the sport until such a time we are deemed worthy enough to compete for overall spots. This is dangerous to the sport. And as far as prizes go you seem to be getting your wish as prize tables are becoming rare. I’ve been to two level II matches this year that had no prize tables and instead handed out checks to division winners. Class trophies are still a valuable form of motivation for many shooters as they feel like they have accomplished something.


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So work harder and win them 😂

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2 minutes ago, Rnlinebacker said:

Or, "Hey man, don't spend $185 plus travel expenses to potentially win something you could just buy by not shooting the match"

You act like I said D class shooters are shooting marches to pay their mortgage  

 

dudes hiding in lower classes is lame. Prize or now prize. If you don’t agree, nothing I say is gonna make sense to you. You’ll just find a reason to argue. 

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4 minutes ago, Rnlinebacker said:

The only prize table people were allowed to go based on finish was Nationals this year. A5, 6, 7 and 8 were random prize giveaways if i remember correctly. So were the sectional matches i attended. If competitors are needy for things off the prize table I suggest saving up and buying them. The point of the matches was you guessed it, the match. Literally, only Luke sandbagged this year and I thought it was hilarious. I'm not mad at him for practicing really hard and crushing souls all year. I don't know what his or any other competitors time and budget constraints are. Let's with the self-righteousness. It's a game..that's not real. No one cares on Monday at work lol

 

It interests me that you could immediately think of someone who was known to sandbag (in multiple divisions), but thought it hilarious. 

 

Anyway:  One of the things that helps pretty much any sport is separation into classification tiers, because people like having measurable, small-ish goals to work toward.  Celebrating small victories is important to the majority of people, especially in a sport where the chances of any one person managing to win at a National or Area level is not large.  After you, you can only have so many of those.  As such, people having other things to look toward, in terms of getting better at the sport, helps bring people to the sport, and keep them in the sport.

 

One of the things that hurts that, of course, is when someone who obviously should not be in particular classification is nonetheless lumped in with then---whether too high or too low, either way it is detrimental to someone.  (Too low---that person gets crushed, too high, the rest of everyone feels bad and angry, etc.) 

 

"Let's with the self-righteousness. It's a game..that's not real. No one cares on Monday at work lol"

 

Making up emotional reactions and attaching them to other people isn't particularly convincing.  As for the other two sentences, sports are very real.  And people continue to care after the competition, because the sport continues.

 

Mostly, people thinking that the classification rating is FAIR is the important part.  Sandbaggers gain negative reactions because they are deliberately doing something to make a part of the competition unfair in terms of final results.

 

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Just now, B_RAD said:

You act like I said D class shooters are shooting marches to pay their mortgage  

 

dudes hiding in lower classes is lame. Prize or now prize. If you don’t agree, nothing I say is gonna make sense to you. You’ll just find a reason to argue. 

 Cite examples of this being the norm please. Your blanket assumption people hide in lower divisions is lame. Many competitors can be classified in lower divisions if they prefer to compete in another exclusively. If you compete in a popular division you will get match bumped anyways. If you compete in the dinosaur divisions you may never get a match bump. Either way matches are fun regardless of prizes. It's very kind of MD's to even offer them but not a necessity and that one time that a sandbagger hurts someone's feelings is not cause to spread propaganda that it's some epidemic

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2 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

Anyway:  One of the things that helps pretty much any sport is separation into classification tiers, because people like having measurable, small-ish goals to work toward.  Celebrating small victories is important to the majority of people, especially in a sport where the chances of any one person managing to win at a National or Area level is not large.  After you, you can only have so many of those.  As such, people having other things to look toward, in terms of getting better at the sport, helps bring people to the sport, and keep them in the sport.

 

One of the things that hurts that, of course, is when someone who obviously should not be in particular classification is nonetheless lumped in with then---whether too high or too low, either way it is detrimental to someone.  (Too low---that person gets crushed, too high, the rest of everyone feels bad and angry, etc.) 

 

 

I understand that many people feel that way, but it makes no sense to me. If someone 'wins' their class, either that person clearly belongs in the class above, or that person got lucky and no one else showed up to the match. Either way it doesn't seem like something to be proud of more than once.

 

Maybe I'm just old enough that I grew up before participation medals, so to me, improving my overall position is how I judge progress. If I finished in the top 30% last year, but this year I'm in the top 20%, that means a helluva lot more to me than a 1st A class or 1st senior plaque.

 

Nonetheless, if people need the strokes, i think class plaques or trophies are fine. I think attaching valuable prizes to those plaques is dumb and encourages unsportsmanlike behavior.

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1 minute ago, Rnlinebacker said:

 Cite examples of this being the norm please. Your blanket assumption people hide in lower divisions is lame. Many competitors can be classified in lower divisions if they prefer to compete in another exclusively. If you compete in a popular division you will get match bumped anyways. If you compete in the dinosaur divisions you may never get a match bump. Either way matches are fun regardless of prizes. It's very kind of MD's to even offer them but not a necessity and that one time that a sandbagger hurts someone's feelings is not cause to spread propaganda that it's some epidemic

“Propaganda”. 🤣

 

I really need to cite examples?  You’re really  gonna tell me that it’s not obvious there are shooters out there exploiting some of these contingency programs?  
 


 

 

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7 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

It interests me that you could immediately think of someone who was known to sandbag (in multiple divisions), but thought it hilarious. 

 

Anyway:  One of the things that helps pretty much any sport is separation into classification tiers, because people like having measurable, small-ish goals to work toward.  Celebrating small victories is important to the majority of people, especially in a sport where the chances of any one person managing to win at a National or Area level is not large.  After you, you can only have so many of those.  As such, people having other things to look toward, in terms of getting better at the sport, helps bring people to the sport, and keep them in the sport.

 

One of the things that hurts that, of course, is when someone who obviously should not be in particular classification is nonetheless lumped in with then---whether too high or too low, either way it is detrimental to someone.  (Too low---that person gets crushed, too high, the rest of everyone feels bad and angry, etc.) 

 

"Let's with the self-righteousness. It's a game..that's not real. No one cares on Monday at work lol"

 

Making up emotional reactions and attaching them to other people isn't particularly convincing.  As for the other two sentences, sports are very real.  And people continue to care after the competition, because the sport continues.

 

Mostly, people thinking that the classification rating is FAIR is the important part.  Sandbaggers gain negative reactions because they are deliberately doing something to make a part of the competition unfair in terms of final results.

 

 

Epitome of a response indicating people need vindication for "getting better" via prizes or as they are called...participation trophies. Again, cool that matches can give them away but I competed in bunch of matches this year and never once thought "Better work hard for those prizes this year" lol. I even managed to finish top 3 in my class at A6, A7 and a sectional. Got the plaque and thought "I'm on the right track". Maybe at A6 & A7 the competitors above me were sandbagging. I didn't get in my feelings about it. If they can game the system then so be it.

 

I played division 1 college football so I know about people gaming the system for real via PEDs and how that is truly unfair. This is a weekend hobby for the majority of our membership. Please take this air hug if sandbaggers are hurting your feelings.

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Epitome of a response indicating people need vindication for "getting better" via prizes or as they are called...participation trophies. Again, cool that matches can give them away but I competed in bunch of matches this year and never once thought "Better work hard for those prizes this year" lol. I even managed to finish top 3 in my class at A6, A7 and a sectional. Got the plaque and thought "I'm on the right track". Maybe at A6 & A7 the competitors above me were sandbagging. I didn't get in my feelings about it. If they can game the system then so be it.
 
I played division 1 college football so I know about people gaming the system for real via PEDs and how that is truly unfair. This is a weekend hobby for the majority of our membership. Please take this air hug if sandbaggers are hurting your feelings.



Like other posters here, I too grew up in the time before participation trophies were a thing. I do believe, however, that the sport would become more competitive if shooters were forced to compete against others of the same skill level.

People might argue that this makes no sense or little difference but this is a common practice in nearly all other sports as well. Golf and bowling have handicaps, football and baseball in schools of all levels have classification levels. Even professional sports have different levels for different level players (ie major and minor league baseball.


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2 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

“Propaganda”. 🤣

 

I really need to cite examples?  You’re really  gonna tell me that it’s not obvious there are shooters out there exploiting some of these contingency programs?  
 


 

 

 

Wait i thought we were discussing prizes being stolen away from "true class winners" at USPSA matches? What does a gun or ammo manufacturer giving money away to competitors have to do with that? They are free to choose to put out whatever they want. Competitors could easily buy the gun or ammo and just train really hard and win the contingency money yourself but that is too hard I'm assuming? One final question, would you still go to level 2 and 3 matches if there were no prizes offered at all? I would.

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12 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

“Propaganda”. 🤣

 

I really need to cite examples?  You’re really  gonna tell me that it’s not obvious there are shooters out there exploiting some of these contingency programs?  
 


 

 

 

Is it exploiting it? I mean from the outside it looks funny that a B class guy is trashing most people in Carry Optics but if you look at his record it makes sense. Until this year he shot mostly production and open and is very close to Master level in both. This year he switched to CO, and is clearly working very hard, but has shot almost no classifiers. 

No reason to if Walther is going to be sending checks every month :) 

Edited by waktasz
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2 minutes ago, Chrisperkins027 said:

 

 


Like other posters here, I too grew up in the time before participation trophies were a thing. I do believe, however, that the sport would become more competitive if shooters were forced to compete against others of the same skill level.

People might argue that this makes no sense or little difference but this is a common practice in nearly all other sports as well. Golf and bowling have handicaps, football and baseball in schools of all levels have classification levels. Even professional sports have different levels for different level players (ie major and minor league baseball.


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What do you think the classifier system is for? 

In general, this isn't a problem except in one division, because one company is offering cash, and the system is going to work itself out via match bumps. The great majority of other shooters aren't purposely hiding in a lower class because they want a $6 trophy.  
At least in my group of friends they would rather be struggling as a new master or GM as opposed to winning every match in A or B class. 

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