Classifiers for Level II Matches

[Chrisperkins027]

I was just wondering who would be in favor of making it mandatory to include a classifier in all level II matches? It seems like there is a lot of sandbagging going on and one way to prevent a lot of this would be to include a classifier in level II matches. If a shooter was purposely avoiding local matches/classifiers they would not be able to avoid them in major matches this way. I understand that there are methods in place to promote shooters to higher classes based on major match performance but there are prerequisites that must be met. 1) At least 3 GMs in Division. 2) At least 50 shooters in Division, and some others that I won't list here. The problem here is that many divisions, such as single stack, limited 10, carry optics, and sometimes production do not have 50 shooters or 3 GMs in a major match. Thoughts?

[motosapiens]

a better way to stop sandbagging is to stop rewarding it. stop pretending that it's cool to beat the 5 other guys that also didn't practice hard enough to move up a class.

 

when people complain about sandbagging, they're actually only complaining about the people sandbagging slightly harder than they are.

Edited October 23, 2019 by motosapiens

[Rnlinebacker]

I was just wondering who would be in favor of making it mandatory to include a classifier in all level II matches? It seems like there is a lot of sandbagging going on and one way to prevent a lot of this would be to include a classifier in level II matches. If a shooter was purposely avoiding local matches/classifiers they would not be able to avoid them in major matches this way. I understand that there are methods in place to promote shooters to higher classes based on major match performance but there are prerequisites that must be met. 1) At least 3 GMs in Division. 2) At least 50 shooters in Division, and some others that I won't list here. The problem here is that many divisions, such as single stack, limited 10, carry optics, and sometimes production do not have 50 shooters or 3 GMs in a major match. Thoughts?

Sandbagging is not a problem the game just allows it and some people take advantage of it. Who cares. It doesn't steal anything off anybody's plate or paycheck. Shoot matches, have fun

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[Sarge]

If I understand things now level II and up are automatically submitted as classifier matches as long as certain criteria is met, so there really isn’t a need to include a classifier per say.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Sarge

[Chrisperkins027]

30 minutes ago, Sarge said:

If I understand things now level II and up are automatically submitted as classifier matches as long as certain criteria is met, so there really isn’t a need to include a classifier per day.

Only if you have 50 shooters in the division and 3 GMs. Some divisions rarely see 50 shooters in a match. 

[waktasz]

This wouldn't change anything related to sandbagging. At a Level 2 match I'm not going to try to blast a classifier at my max "omg let's try to hundo this" pace. I'm going to shoot it so that I get a good number of alphas and don't trash my match by zeroing it.

 

[Sarge]

 

3 minutes ago, waktasz said:

This wouldn't change anything related to sandbagging. At a Level 2 match I'm not going to try to blast a classifier at my max "omg let's try to hundo this" pace. I'm going to shoot it so that I get a good number of alphas and don't trash my match by zeroing it.

 

Agreed. This is why it's easier just to design a few little speed shoots instead.

[Chrisperkins027]

This wouldn't change anything related to sandbagging. At a Level 2 match I'm not going to try to blast a classifier at my max "omg let's try to hundo this" pace. I'm going to shoot it so that I get a good number of alphas and don't trash my match by zeroing it.
 

I get that too. A recent level II match that I shot at though included a M shooter that appeared to purposely tank the classifier stage which cost him a place on the podium. I just think there is some logic behind including one in every match. Before that match I didn’t give it a lot of thought but upon reflection I think it was good idea.


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[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, Chrisperkins027 said:

I get that too. A recent level II match that I shot at though included a M shooter that appeared to purposely tank the classifier stage which cost him a place on the podium.

 

"appeared"?

 

If I were going to tank a classifier, I would do it at a local match, not sacrifice a major match, but I personally don't know any M's who aren't striving to make GM.

[Chrisperkins027]

 
"appeared"?
 
If I were going to tank a classifier, I would do it at a local match, not sacrifice a major match, but I personally don't know any M's who aren't striving to make GM.

And it may not have been intentional it just appeared that way. It could have been a gun failure. I was just mentioning it as an example of how purposely blowing a classifier could cost someone a spot on the podium.


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[motosapiens]

I think i would worry more about my own shooting, but then I'm trying to improve in the overall,  against the winner,  not desperately trying to be first senior C transgender military at the next area match. 

[RadarTech]

A few thoughts-
1. That increases the fees paid to USPSA by the match- most MDs May bump the cost of the match a couple $ to account for that.
2. That drops a course of fire that maybe have been unique.
3. If it is a low round count, low match point stage it may not even impact the match

A former AD used to put 2 classifiers in the area match just for this reason.

[Chrisperkins027]

I think i would worry more about my own shooting, but then I'm trying to improve in the overall,  against the winner,  not desperately trying to be first senior C transgender military at the next area match. 

Well for those of us who aren’t M or GM shooters and got into the sport too late in life to likely achieve those levels it is nice to be able to compete within our respective classes.


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[Chrisperkins027]

A few thoughts-
1. That increases the fees paid to USPSA by the match- most MDs May bump the cost of the match a couple $ to account for that.
2. That drops a course of fire that maybe have been unique.
3. If it is a low round count, low match point stage it may not even impact the match

A former AD used to put 2 classifiers in the area match just for this reason.

[emoji1303]


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[B_RAD]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

a better way to stop sandbagging is to stop rewarding it. stop pretending that it's cool to beat the 5 other guys that also didn't practice hard enough to move up a class.

 

when people complain about sandbagging, they're actually only complaining about the people sandbagging slightly harder than they are.

Not even close. I have a problem with sandbaggers!  I do not sandbag at all. 
 

 

[Chrisperkins027]

Not even close. I have a problem with sandbaggers!  I do not sandbag at all. 
 
 

That’s my position as well. I hate seeing people get knocked out of a class trophy bc of someone shooting in a lower class than what they should be, especially when it’s obvious.


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[B_RAD]

1 hour ago, Rnlinebacker said:

Sandbagging is not a problem the game just allows it and some people take advantage of it. Who cares. It doesn't steal anything off anybody's plate or paycheck. Shoot matches, have fun

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I disagree!  
 

Sandbaggers wining prizes off the table for a class win is 100% taking from someone who’s legitimate X class. 
 

even if there’s not a prize to be won, it’s still straight up douche bag!

[Chrisperkins027]

 
"appeared"?
 
If I were going to tank a classifier, I would do it at a local match, not sacrifice a major match, but I personally don't know any M's who aren't striving to make GM.

Appeared just from looking at stage scores. When someone is shooting 90-95 % in every stage of a match then shoots a 50ish % it suggests that it was on purpose.


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[Chrisperkins027]

I disagree!  
 
Sandbaggers wining prizes off the table for a class win is 100% taking from someone who’s legitimate X class. 
 
even if there’s not a prize to be won, it’s still straight up douche bag!

I agree.


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[B_RAD]

4 minutes ago, Chrisperkins027 said:

 

 

Appeared just from looking at stage scores. When someone is shooting 90-95 % in every stage of a match then shoots a 50ish % it suggests that it was on purpose.


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IDK. Shite happens. I know I had a few 50% stages at Nats. I also had some really good ones. Definitely wasn’t throwing any on purpose. Forgot to chamber a round, forgot a target, lost my dot.  Those will crash a stage bad!

Edited October 23, 2019 by B_RAD

[B_RAD]

Contingency programs, IMO, have really incentivized sandbagging!  It’s bad for the sport!  
 

just my opinion. 

[Chrisperkins027]

IDK. Shite happens. I know I had a few 50% stages at Nats. I also had some really good ones. Definitely wasn’t throwing any on purpose. Forgot to chamber a round, forgot a target, list my dot.  Those will crash a stage bad!

I understand those things happen that’s why I am not willing to outright accuse anyone. I was simply using it as an example of how a bad score on a classifier in a major match could impact overall finish.


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[Rnlinebacker]

I disagree!  
 
Sandbaggers wining prizes off the table for a class win is 100% taking from someone who’s legitimate X class. 
 
even if there’s not a prize to be won, it’s still straight up douche bag!

We don't go to these matches for prizes but rather to compete. The prizes are a bonus if they are available. There are less sandbaggers than you're making it seem

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[motosapiens]

12 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

I disagree!  
 

Sandbaggers wining prizes off the table for a class win is 100% taking from someone who’s legitimate X class. 
 

even if there’s not a prize to be won, it’s still straight up douche bag!

right, and the problem is pretending that a class 'win' is a thing deserving of prizes.

[Thomas H]

2 hours ago, Rnlinebacker said:

Sandbagging is not a problem the game just allows it and some people take advantage of it. Who cares. It doesn't steal anything off anybody's plate or paycheck. Shoot matches, have fun

 

Often at Area matches and so on, people who win class awards go to the prize table before other folks.

 

As an example, if there was a guy who use to shoot Production, was a B in Production, yet beat A and M class shooters in major matches and continually walked the prize table with that class win, he would win a number of things.  And if that guy, once he was forcibly reclassed into a higher classification in Production, then switched to Carry Optics, then shot as a B-class in Carry Optics (even though he placed high beating As and Ms at Area matches and indeed, at Nationals), he would then still continue to walk the prize table early with his B-class wins.

 

That's only one specific example of a person.  Don't get me wrong, most sandbaggers get absolutely nothing out of it other than people making fun of them.  But every one in awhile, someone sandbags in such a way to pull quite a few prizes, that should have been won by other people.  It does happen.