2005 Idpa Nationals DQ discussion

[Jake Di Vita]

See this is just totally ridiculous to me.

Taran has never been anything but a man of integrity that I've seen....people calling him a cheater really need to curb it....now...

I may be able to see IDPA's side on this IF crap like this hadn't happened several times and several matches to people I knew.

Preserve the integrity of the sport by DQ'ing a competitor who freaking turned around and dry gripped his gun? I think that backfired a whole lot.

[lynn jones]

i think it's time lock this puppy down.

lynn

[Crusher]

When I'm done shooting, the match is over for me. If I have not been DQ'd as of that point, I don't expect to be DQ'd or additionaly penalized.

Nor do I however, we now KNOW diffrently.

If anything this has been an "enlightening" inside look into the process of a Match DQ and the desire of some to

Take back our sport

within the IDPA arena. I wish to thank all who have contributed thus far, for I now KNOW MORE than I did this am with regard to the Rules and DQ's.

[vincent]

Good post Ken.

I shoot both IDPA and USPSA. I'll admit that I'm a bit jaded about IDPA over the last year. I have my reasons.

However I totally understand what several of the posters said about "taking back the sport". The owners of IDPA and many of the folks who run a lot of the major matches around the country want to reign in the gamers of the sport and "return IDPA to it's roots". I understand this desire and there will be problems whenever change is implemented.

I have a lot of respect for some of the core SO's in our area. Anyone who shoots around here knows about guys like Gary Burris and "Iron Mike" Webb to name but a few. You'd have to talk to one of these guys in person to get a real feel for what they are talking about.

I think the bottom line is if you don't like the way IDPA is going then don't shoot it. There are lots of shooting games. I'm going to shoot more IDPA in the coming season. IDPA has a lot to offer. You have to decide if you want it.

[Middle Man]

Irregardless of any personal allegiances, predilections or previous statements of opinion; the manner and fashion of the disqualificaion smacks the senseabilities of fairness and sportsmanship squarely in the nose.

[jkelly]

Yes, BE IDPA forum is the most hostile toward IDPA of all the internet forums and groups. Some people I know won't post here because of it.

You're here now and posted only a week ago, so it seems you will post here.

It seems lots of non-IDPA shooters hang out here that just love to hate IDPA. I don't think it is about moderation though, except in some few cases, there are just lots of never-were or ex-IDPA shooters here that have a very dull axe.

I think it 's the partisian statements that IDPA insiders sometimes make, often in an angry dismissive tone, that dull many axes. Of course suggesting that if people don't like the rules they can leave have not made IDPA many friends.

It is to the point that when one sees a persons alias, you know what they are going to type. It seems some aliases have never posted a positive post about IDPA.

And some alias never seem to be able to post a negative one.

jkelly

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Wasn't there but I have one question,

The FTDR penalty is supposed to be for unsportsmanlike conduct, among other things.  How many were given to this shooter by the SOs that were accusing him of it?

If the answer is none, they obviously didn't think it was that bad when it happened.  If they issued them, they are supporting their decision.

Regards,

Gary

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry I had to go to work today or I would have continued. (tough being self employed)

Ted,

I appologize if you felt my statement was personal. You chose to answer that but not the important question I asked quoted above.

I am a shooter, I shoot IDPA, USPSA, Steel, and anything else anyone will let me do. I am an IDPA SO and have worked State and Regional matches for several years. I am, at times, discontent with IDPA but still come back.

At a recent State Championship match I assessed a FTDR to a shooter for a violation. I really did not like doing it but it was warranted. After the match the SOs were talking and we compared notes on the shooter. Most stages had problems with him/her but no one DQ'd him/her.

The FTDR was the proper call. Had there been several during the match, I feel the shooter in my case should have been DQ'd because more SOs than I saw violations serious enough to issue a FTDR.

So, my question is: Were there any FTDR penalties given to Mr Butler? If not, what was so egregious that none were given but a DQ was?

Regards,

Gary

[jkelly]

Irregardless of any personal allegiances, predilections or previous statements of opinion; the manner and fashion of the disqualificaion smacks the senseabilities of fairness and sportsmanship squarely in the nose.---Middle Man

Wow, well said in a very smooth manner!

Respectfully,

jkelly

[Ted Murphy]

At a recent State Championship match I assessed a FTDR to a shooter for a violation.  I really did not like doing it but it was warranted. 

You should not like doing it. I got ill my first time.

So, my question is: Were there any FTDR penalties given to Mr Butler?  If not, what was so egregious that none were given but a DQ was? 

I really do not know if I can answer that. Most of the discussions were in confidence and without permission I cannot really talk about it. If the party involved wishes it shared on the net I will though.

I guess I could ask you your thoughts on how many FTDR's constitutes a DQ?

For what it is worth, Mr. Butler did nothing noteworthy on my two stages other than burn them down. I did not have much to contribute to the overall discussion beyond offering my opinon when asked.

Ted

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I guess I could ask you your thoughts on how many FTDR's constitutes a DQ? 

Ted

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is a tough question, Ted and would require prior discussion with the MD and all SOs.

Speaking as one, I feel one FTDR is too many. Does it mean a DQ? I don't think so. If it is serious enough, a stage DQ can be assessed. If a stage DQ happens, it is now the MDs game as to whether full DQ is going to happen.

My only concern in this is if there was a violation or violations serious enough for a DQ, there should have been penalties assessed during the stages.

Everone works hard at matches including the shooters. Letting everything slide during the match and then telling someone they are DQ'd is not what I would call a proper way to enforce the rules of any sport. I hope that is not how this went down.

Regards,

Gary

[tightloop]

IF, a DQ was issued without mulitple FTDR's or he was DQ'ed after the fact when the SO's were comparing notes, that is poor administration by the MD and the AC and BW....

DQ regardless of why it is imposed should be done at the time the infraction/s occur, not after the fact...

What a sad tale irregardless of who was involved...

[Ted Murphy]

Speaking as one, I feel one FTDR is too many.  Does it mean a DQ?  I don't think so.  If it is serious enough, a stage DQ can be assessed.  If a stage DQ happens, it is now the MDs game as to whether full DQ is going to happen.

I know they do stage dq's at some clubs, but the IDPA rules do not have such a penalty. For conduct you have PC1- the failure to do right and PC2- Match DQ for unsporsmanlike conduct. They chose to do the latter.

PC 2. Disqualification (DQ):

A. Results from unsportsmanlike conduct, unfair actions, or the use of illegal equipment, which, in the opinion of the MD, tends to make a travesty of the defensive shooting sport will result in an FTDR or DQ from the entire match at the discretion of the match director. The shooter may not continue in any part of that day(s) match, may not re-enter in another division, and may not shoot any side matches. Repeated offenses reported to the AC or HQ can result in having membership revoked.

[freeidaho]

I think it 's the partisian statements that IDPA insiders sometimes make, often in an angry dismissive tone, that dull many axes.  Of course suggesting that if people don't like the rules they can leave have not made IDPA many friends.

jkelly

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sir,

I have seen this thought represented a couple of times here, maybe by you, I can't recall. In all friendliness, since Bill W, Joyce W, John S, and few of the staff at IDPA post here, just who are you talking about as insiders, and what have they said to make you so angry. Links to the posts I could read to see your viewpoint would be great. Thanks.

Maybe I have seen the posts and dismissed them because I am an IDPA supporter. That is, I am active in a local club and it's sanctioned matchs, and do my best to make matches that work and are fun. If that makes me or others like me an insider, them it is a new meaning of the term for me.

Do I love everything about IDPA. No. Does that make me perpetually angry and spew venom everywhere IDPA is mentioned. No. Nor do I go to the IPSC discussion boards and go nanner nanner nanner any time they have a difficulty to work through. I fully support anyone that is honestly trying to do what it takes to make any situation better. The posts I wrote about earlier do not have that tone.

As for the Nationals Shit Storm version 2005, I suspect that giving a DQ was the hardest thing about the match for the MD. The people that I know that have to give penalties do it with great reluctance, since the easiest thing would be to do nothing. But doing nothing only penalizes all the other shooters in the match., and perpetuates the violation for coming matches. Any of you SOs that have to give PEs, FTDRs or DQs know what I mean.

Ken Reed

"You are what you do, everything else is just talk."

[Ron Ankeny]

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I know they do stage dq's at some clubs, but the IDPA rules do not have such a penalty.  For conduct you have PC1- the failure to do right and PC2- Match DQ for unsporsmanlike conduct.  They chose to do the latter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Obviously, but not at the time of infraction which can be extremely confusing and subjective.

Thanks,

Gary

Edited to add: Welcome to member 6073

Edited September 28, 2005 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Flexmoney]

Before the evening rush, I'm going to call a time-out on this thread.

Brian had talked of shutting the thread down, and he asked for input from the moderators. The moderators seemed to be in agreement at this time. Brian is off the forum at the moment, however. And, Nik sounds like he is out for the evening with family.

What will likely happen is that one of us will come back and split out the rule talk (about Taran and such) from the general match discussion. Then, the general match discussion will be opened back up.

I'd go ahead an do so now, but I don't have the time to wade thru 6 pages while on dial-up (my cable went out) and still get the yard mowed this evening.

[btw, I make these post in a different color to be clear that I am posting in an official capacity. I try to post my opinions on matters in regular ol' black.]

[benos]

Thanks Kyle.

I was going to lock the thread with:

I'm locking this thread due to slander and sport/person bashing in general. At this point, the only worthwhile additions to this thread would be replies from either Taran Butler and/or John May, which will be permitted should they notify me of their intent to do so.

Please feel free to start another thread for general '05 IDPA Nationals discussions, if needed.

Thank you,

be

[Flexmoney]

The match talk has been separated from the rules/DQ talk. I moved it to the Match Announcements forum (the proper place for it).

You all are good with a mouse, so please find it and continue the match discuss there (without the DQ talk, please).

[Taran Butler]

Wow! I haven’t had this much discussion about me on the Internet for ever winning a match before. Brian called me and said I’d better take a look at this mega storm of discussion for my being D.Q’d 48 hours after the match was over.

Actually my first response on hearing I was being D.Q’d was hoping that no one had seen my weak performance of 205 seconds, but everyone had already seen that mess. I’m just going to tell what actually happened at this Nationals. But it might make things clearer if I tell a little prequel of how I got on ‘John May’s’ “s” list and probably for good reason. At the 2004 Nationals I showed up wearing a drab grey and tan outfit, trying to blend in with all the rest of the IDPA shooters.

I thought I had this really cool way of doing a retained reload straight into my right side pocket of my vest. I did this reload on the Standards and the S.O. couldn’t believe how fast it was and I showed him how I did it. He thought it was pretty ‘cool.’ A few stages later I was shooting a stage where I was sitting in a car and had to shoot 5 targets, 2 shots each to the body and one shot each to the head. Before I shot it I asked the S.O. if it would be OK to dump the 11th round in one of the targets heads and then reload and shoot the other heads. He said “no problem.”

I asked him a couple of times to make sure it was ok. Each time he said “yeah, yeah, yeah, enough already.” When I was done shooting the stage he said “good time, but one procedural.” I said “why?” He said “you shot the wrong head.” So like a typical IPSC shooter I wanted to talk to the Match Director. When the Match Director showed up we didn’t bother even discussing the car stage. He asked if I did a reload into my vest pocket on the Standards. I said “yes.”

He reached over and zipped up my pocket and said “that’s not legal and you can’t do that here and I should give you a procedural for it.” I said “I asked everybody in IDPA that I know and read the rule book and found nothing prohibiting it.” He said “you can’t do it. It’s not legal.” Maybe he is right, I’m not totally sure, but that put me on his personal “s” list.

I made a lot of mistakes that year. I was told not to ‘air gun’ once and I was told “you can’t kneel,” but I made a mental note each time I got a procedural not to repeat it.

Now fast forward to this match. I heard the weather this year was going to be extremely hot and humid so I borrowed a shirt made by ‘Techwear’ that is extremely comfortable in hot humid weather. When I got out of the car, the morning of the Match, I heard Dave S. say “Wow, Taran, why don’t you just wear a bullseye on your back.”

When he said that I thought to myself, “does this Sport still have the extreme prejudices against IPSC shooter it had when it first started?” I really thought “no, because at our major and local USPSA matches we are always hoping for IDPA crossovers and welcome them with open arms. Walking around this match with that World Shoot USPSA.org shirt on I could tell really turned a few heads and cocked a few eyebrows. My goal at this Match was to try not to incur any procedurals and just do what everybody else did. I didn’t air gun any stages or kneel down to look at angles as I saw other shooters do on stage 14, ‘Bad Bus Ride’. Of course when I taped targets I didn’t walk by with blinders on. I tried to see as I walked by angles of targets like any other shooter that wants to get the best result.

Are we supposed to believe anyone that cares about their performance doesn’t care to know where any of the targets are or where to shoot them from? The only procedural I got by any S.O. was on ‘Stage 9, Clear the Deck’ and was totally founded. When I was backing up shooting the 3 targets I did stop my movement when I shot the last shot on the target.

Mark, Mike, Fred and Jerry were the S.O’s on that stage and they just happened to be the nicest S.O’s of the match. If Mr. Murphy (Murphy’s Law) was telling the truth about me being some ‘ravenous, gaming, law breaking, rule breaking, underhanded unsportsmanlike, cheating, raging A’hole, then why wasn’t I riddled with dozens of procedurals and failures to do right throughout the match?? It doesn’t really make sense, does it?

If anyone wants another opinion of how I acted at this match ask your own Arkansas local shooter, Bobby Spradling. He is the only one in my squad I can remember his last name. The only highlight of this match for controversy, that I recall, other than being asked to move my ‘mag pouch’ back on ‘Stage 15’ was the ‘El Presidente’.

I will tell you know exactly what happened on that Stage. I was called up as the first shooter in the Squad on the ‘El Presidente’. I was standing waiting to shoot and I started to contemplate whether I should turn right like I usually do, or left which would clear the vest better for the draw. I did reach down and touch my gun. All I had in my head was ‘just don’t air gun anything. The S.O. was over talking with the M.D. who was watching me from his ‘quad’ and suddenly the S.O said “hey, what are you doing?” I said “Uuuuugh…” He said “were you thinking of shooting this stage?” I thought to myself, what else would I be thinking about, prancing through lily pads and dandelions? He said, again “were you rehearsing the stage?” I said “yes. I was definitely thinking about shooting the stage.” He said, “OK. One procedural. Now shoot the ‘El Presidente’.”

After that they ran me through the other two little Stage 2 and Stage 3. When I signed the sheet the S.O said to me “hey Taran, I’m sorry about that. I had no choice because the M.D. asked me to give it to you. Other shooter did the same thing during the day and only got a warning.”

It was only 3:00 P.M. so I decided to watch Dave and Juliie finish shooting on Stage 6 and 7. During that hour or so that I watched them shoot I saw John May driving up so I stopped him and told him “that I was sorry for my mistake.” He said “it’s alright. Just, there is no rehearsing the Stages.” I said “I will definitely do better next time.” He said “OK”

Two days later, on Saturday, at about 4:00 P.M., California time, I get a call to call John May “immediately.” I called him and he informed me that I was being ‘disqualified tonight for gross unsportsmanlike conduct.’ I asked him “Why?” He said “just from things people said about you and what I witnessed during the match.” I asked him “what was it that you witnessed?” He said “I saw you rehearsing the El Presidente and I told the S.O to give you a procedural.” I said “I got a procedural for that. What else did I do? He said “you were witnessed rehearsing stages after that which is what upset me.”

I said, “that’s pretty interesting since that was the last stage of the match for me.” He said “there is nothing more to discuss about this, you are being D.Q’d “

I just don’t understand why I wasn’t D.Q’d during the hour I stayed around and talked to the Match Director. Why was it 48 hours later? I can visualize all these guys out having beers, yelling “hey, how ‘bout that ‘sombitch’ with that ‘yankee’ shirt on.”

This whole scenario is not worth the attention it is getting. Shooting this Match felt like being a black man in a 1941 golf tournament, wearing that USPSA shirt. The rule of IDPA if you started in IDPA and go to IPSC you can always come back with open arms in the same way Michael Jackson will always be accepted by African Americans even though he now is ‘whiter’ than a ‘white man.’

I do not appreciate anyone labeling me with “grossly unsportsmanlike behavior”. I have been shooting for 15 years and no one – no one - has ever seen me display ‘gross unsportsmanlike behavior – or come even close to putting that kind of a label on me. If that were true it would have most certainly been displayed during the 15 years I have been shooting, and it never has.

If anyone out there actually witnessed me doing something “grossly unsportsmanlike” call me at (805) 520-3624

Taran Butler