2005 Idpa Nationals DQ discussion

[firewalker]

I was a SO at the nationals this year, I find it totally unexceptable for shooters to always except that "this was done to me because" It was not Bill Wilson, nor IDPA that did anything to anyone at the nationals. Has it crossed anyones mind that maybe he earned his DQ?

As for rules being unfairly used, the circumstances around an act defines how it is ruled. Because a shooter is a Grandmaster or just a marksman shooter had no influence on there being a PE. I just hate when these forums turn into a slam IDPA because of the rules....IF u cant follow the rules, EXPECT that u will EARN a PE.

and Yes I EARNED 1 proceedural

Edited September 28, 2005 by firewalker

[Crusher]

So how many PE's+ FTDR = AFTMC* DQ, via the rules of course?

"inquiring minds want to know"

* After The Match Completion

[shred]

[Admin note.. please remember the 'be respectful' rule. That applies to organizations and matches as well as people. Should you think something you wrote may be misconstrued, may we suggest the edit button?. Thanks

[down0]

I seriously hope someone involved has a little more information on Taran's DQ.

Because in the absence of more information, a bunch of guys — even if it's the match director and the SOs — getting together after a match and deciding to DQ an individual without discussing it with that individual has nothing to do with either "sport" or "integrity."

Gentlemen?

Michael B

IDPA A-00009

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, the decision to DQ Mr. Butler was John's and John's alone. There was no meeting after the match. The CSO meeting in question occured the night that Taran shot. I do not know what, if anything was discussed with Taran. I respectfully submit that no one else on this forum does either.

[Carlos]

MbaneACP wrote: "Because in the absence of more information, a bunch of guys — even if it's the match director and the SOs — getting together after a match and deciding to DQ an individual without discussing it with that individual has nothing to do with either "sport" or "integrity.""

Very well put. Agree.

Down Zero wrote: "There was no meeting after the match. The CSO meeting in question occured the night that Taran shot."

Put another way, it WAS after the match. It was after Taran had finished shooting. Aparently nothing he did WHILE shooting earned him the DQ. Rather, they discussed his performance, and then issued a DQ? There is no evidence that the matter was ever brought up to him prior to the decision. Without further explanation, this does not seem very fair. I hope that an explanation is forthcoming.

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

[George]

Does anyone know how Taran would have finished had he not been DQ'd?

[Mark Perez]

T. Butler Div:ESP , Class:Master

Final score 205.16 (33PD).

Would have been 5th ESP/MA if the score stood.

Edited September 28, 2005 by Mark Perez

[George]

Tanks'

[Ted Murphy]

Aparently nothing he did WHILE shooting earned him the DQ. Rather, they discussed his performance, and then issued a DQ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not true . It was what he did while shooting that earned him a DQ. During the CSO meeting the exact nature and sum of what was done was realized when all the CSO's who had issues with him compared notes and the competitor's complaints were weighed in. Scoring programs record procedurals and equipment warnings, but there are no means within such a program to track a pattern of unsportsmanlike conduct. It took an end of the day debriefing of the CSO's by the match director to reconize a pattern of unsportsmanlike conduct on the part of a competitor which took until the end of the day when the range staff were discussing the events of the day.

It is not my place to lay out the exact details. Mr. Butler was informed via telephone of what went down and the consequences that he earned for what he did. It was the match director's desire to discuss this with him in person before acting on his decisision, but Mr. Butler left early and was not available via telephone to discuss things until saturday, even though repeated messages to his home telephone were left. While these things are best done in person prior to acting on them, it was the feeling of the MD that the DQ was warranted and that the competitor leaving early and then being incommunicado for a few days was not going to get him off the hook.

This is not about a shooter the match staff decided to "Get". This is about a shooter who really revelled in trying to get over on the SO's on nearly every stage by doing quite a few things that are 1.) illegal and 2.) generally understood by nearly all other IDPA shooters as impolite and bad form. It is my belief he really did not want to be at the match and was having his fun by trying to see what he could get away with. I guess it was a variation of the desire to either win the match, or the argument. He lost both.

I know that on BE.Com there is a general loathing of things IDPA and while the mods would lay the smack down on such negative talk if it were USPSA related, I have noticed that IDPA's forum is moderated more loosely. Be that as it may, IDPA decided to take the sport back this year and will not be suffering shooters who are there to see how far they can push the patience of the SO's, their squadmates, and see how the rules can be twisted. Perhaps this all makes Mr. Butler a martyr- or the Match Director a hero. That will depend on your point of view of course, but the decision was a difficult one and one i for one wish never had to happen. But when you push people all day, do not be suprised when someone finally pushes you back.

Ted

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Wasn't there but I have one question,

The FTDR penalty is supposed to be for unsportsmanlike conduct, among other things. How many were given to this shooter by the SOs that were accusing him of it?

If the answer is none, they obviously didn't think it was that bad when it happened. If they issued them, they are supporting their decision.

As far as this quote

I know that on BE.Com there is a general loathing of things IDPA

Cheap shot Ted and from what I have seen not true. There is a lot of open discussion here and both sides are presented. A loathing by some maybe, but a broad statement as this is untrue from what I have seen.

Regards,

Gary

[rmills]

Aparently nothing he did WHILE shooting earned him the DQ. Rather, they discussed his performance, and then issued a DQ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not true . It was what he did while shooting that earned him a DQ. During the CSO meeting the exact nature and sum of what was done was realized when all the CSO's who had issues with him compared notes and the competitor's complaints were weighed in. Scoring programs record procedurals and equipment warnings, but there are no means within such a program to track a pattern of unsportsmanlike conduct. It took an end of the day debriefing of the CSO's by the match director to reconize a pattern of unsportsmanlike conduct on the part of a competitor which took until the end of the day when the range staff were discussing the events of the day.

It is not my place to lay out the exact details. Mr. Butler was informed via telephone of what went down and the consequences that he earned for what he did. It was the match director's desire to discuss this with him in person before acting on his decisision, but Mr. Butler left early and was not available via telephone to discuss things until saturday, even though repeated messages to his home telephone were left. While these things are best done in person prior to acting on them, it was the feeling of the MD that the DQ was warranted and that the competitor leaving early and then being incommunicado for a few days was not going to get him off the hook.

This is not about a shooter the match staff decided to "Get". This is about a shooter who really revelled in trying to get over on the SO's on nearly every stage by doing quite a few things that are 1.) illegal and 2.) generally understood by nearly all other IDPA shooters as impolite and bad form. It is my belief he really did not want to be at the match and was having his fun by trying to see what he could get away with. I guess it was a variation of the desire to either win the match, or the argument. He lost both.

I know that on BE.Com there is a general loathing of things IDPA and while the mods would lay the smack down on such negative talk if it were USPSA related, I have noticed that IDPA's forum is moderated more loosely. Be that as it may, IDPA decided to take the sport back this year and will not be suffering shooters who are there to see how far they can push the patience of the SO's, their squadmates, and see how the rules can be twisted. Perhaps this all makes Mr. Butler a martyr- or the Match Director a hero. That will depend on your point of view of course, but the decision was a difficult one and one i for one wish never had to happen. But when you push people all day, do not be suprised when someone finally pushes you back.

Ted

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

+1 Ted!

In IDPA, rehearsing of stages before shooting is not allowed, period. Rehearsing a stage is no different than taking a sight picture. IDPA requires shooters to shoot on demand. Please don't try to find fault with IDPA because you shoot another sport and do not understand the principles and rules of IDPA.

[Crusher]

You do the "acts" you take your "hits" (PE's/FTDR) them's the rules. This is not this issue, at issue IS the way in which the rules were applied during a "collective meeting" AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THE MATCH BY A COMPETITOR.

BAD FORM in the administration and enfocement of IDPA's OWN RULES. If the actions of any competitor warrents a match DQ this (to insure "equitable application of the rules") MUST BE DONE AT THE TIME OF ANY INFRACTION(S). PERIOD.

[Ted Murphy]

Cheap shot Ted and from what I have seen not true.  There is a lot of open discussion here and both sides are presented.  A loathing by some maybe, but a broad statement as this is untrue from what I have seen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not at all. Do you think if Carmoney's tirade and the "cheap shot" replies in the revolver shooters at the nats thread was directed at USPSA they would not have been edited or closed? They would have.

One merely has to look at the Adam Tyc and CZ situation in the world shoot forums to see that the mods were on that like a duck on a june bug.

Hey, BE's not my house, it's his, and he moderates it his way. I will tell you this. My other friends in IDPA are always amazed I spend time on this forum. Because whenever they read or post here they always feel targeted by certain members of this forum and the mods don't seem to care about the IDPA forum as much as the USPSA rules forum. You wouldn't see John May or Bill Wilson post here any more than George W would debate foreign policy on CNN. The deck would be too stacked.

And it was not a cheap shot, just a statement of my opinion. I would think I'm allowed to do as much since others get to spew crud out of theirs.

There are a lot of people who love the shooting sports, all shooting sports. There are some who love just one sport but respect the others. And there are some with an axe to grind. And unfortunately, they have a home here.

Ted

Edited September 28, 2005 by Ted Murphy

[Carmoney]

For everybody's quick reference, here's what Ted is talking about:

Carmoney's Horrific Tirade Against IDPA

[Steve Moneypenny]

I in no way intend to bash the sport of IDPA for this OR Bill Wilson. Neither of them were at fault. Not particularly in defense of Mr. Butler but just stating. He lives in California, he had finished shooting long before the last squad on thursday and stuck around and talked to quite a few of us. He had nothing bad to say about the sport the sport or anyone there. His flight left Friday... how soon is too soon to leave? he had not won which he knew when he left. Dave, Julie, Myself and many other shooters left Thursday night or Sat morning. Motels down there were $85 a night, Maybe i could have looked harder but could not afford more time there.

As previously stated there were Many really good stages, Good, Fair SO's and the MD seemed to be very accomodating to me. Please don't let this one negative incident skew your opinion of everyone in the sport there are a lot of good hard working people.

[jkelly]

This is not about a shooter the match staff decided to "Get". This is about a shooter who really revelled in trying to get over on the SO's on nearly every stage by doing quite a few things that are 1.) illegal and 2.) generally understood by nearly all other IDPA shooters as impolite and bad form. ---Ted Murphy

I guess the problem some of us have with this issue, while not actually knowing what happened (and not being told by those who do, like you?), is the thought that punishment should have happened as the transgressions happened to include any judgment for DQ before the shooter completed the match.

It worries me that being "impolite" and "bad form" ( a Shooter-Nazi for a change ) would enter into the discussion of DQing a shooter, as it's a little to incestual for my tastes.

Knowing now that such information was discussed doesn't lend credence to your statement that this isn't about "getting" a shooter.

I know that on BE.Com there is a general loathing of things IDPA... Ted Murphy

I think part of what you may see is a general loathing of what is seen as partisanship expressed here on BE.Com by IDPA/Industry insiders.

Respectfully,

jkelly

[chp5]

This is about a shooter who really revelled in trying to get over on the SO's on nearly every stage by doing quite a few  things that are 1.) illegal and 2.) generally understood by nearly all other IDPA shooters as impolite and bad form. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow! Those are extemely harsh words about a man.

I sincerely hope you know these events as FIRST HAND FACTS (as compared to someone telling you about it) before making these conclusions and posting them on a public forum.

Edited September 28, 2005 by chp5

[TEXASTACTICAL]

I was the Chief Safety Officer for 3 stages on bay 9 at this years Nationals. I arrived at the nightly scheduled CSO meeting on time and everyone was already there and talking so I think I missed some of the talk about Mr. Butler. It seems that each CSO had an issue with Mr. Butler. On my bay I had to stop him from checking the angles (individual course walk through). At the time, I figured since this was only his second Nationals and that he is mainly an IPSC shooter that he might not know better and I didn't feel like it warranted any other action on my part besides stopping him.

It is a shame that Mr. Butler had to be DQed after the fact when all the information surfaced. I know that John May would have liked to have talked to Mr. Butler face to face but that opportunity was lost when he left.

Alot of people have been really pushing the envelope the last few years in IDPA. I think the new rule book was the first step in setting the sport back on its intended path. The next step is to start enforcing these new rules more stringently. To quote John May "It's is time to take our sport back". We all need to follow the rules and not see how far we can push that envelope. Just shoot by the rules and the best shooter on any given day will be the winner.

Edited September 28, 2005 by TEXASTACTICAL

[hopalong]

I have no comment on the "Issue".

But I do have a comment to add that I think fits some what.

Ted mentioned that we would not see Bill Wilson and other IDPA administrators on this forum, That is too bad as that only increases the percieved "hostility" (AND don't go into that either)

Many of the top shooters in the US and World are members of this forum, yes most are USPSA/IPSC oriented but they are also (IMHO) quite level headed and fair.......Note:.....There are always exceptions!

Many of the USPSA administrators have noted the populartity of these forums and now actively seek out opinions towards USPSA "advancements" or what ever else it may be called.

Maybe it would be a good thing for the IDPA administrators to use the same idea.

I personally would like to see Mr. Wilson and others associated with IDPA on these forums and actively communicating, would really go far to eleminate the "hostility".

Yes I understand IDPA has its forums, so does USPSA but it appears to me that these forums are the standard to which others are compared(and used).

We all are grown adults (or should be) sometimes we will agree to disagree that is human and is going to happen....just do it respectfully.

Edited to add:

When the new rule book came out I saw Mrs. Wilson on the forums when there was some pretty HOSTILE stuff said.

She was the perfect member and kept her personal feelings to herself, she gets my respect for that (for what it is worth).

Also edit to add:

As I was proof reading I noticed 11 users, 8 members and 3 anonymos.

of the 8, I personally know 6 and they as I shoot both IDPA and USPSA/IPSC.

Hopalong / Sam Keen

Edited September 28, 2005 by hopalong

[banjobart]

Wow, I cannot believe what I am reading here. Is there a pattern? This reminds me of the Ohio State match last year when the top finisher, an honest and polite young man, was DQ'ed an hour after the match was finished after the MD received reports of his alledged "airgunning" (of which there was no mention of such an infraction in the old rule book) and alledged use of illegal equipment.

I will say that I think DQ'ing someone the day after match is a cowardly act of unsportsmanlike conduct. The MD should be DQ'ed, too, and his score removed for gross unsportsmanlike conduct. Sorry, that is just my personal opinion based on my thoughts of what is right and what is fair play. I think that MD cheated because he suspected after the fact that a shooter had cheated. When do two wrongs make a right? Never, in my book.

[Crusher]

To quote John May "It's is time to take our sport back".

An "insight" into the thought processes of a IDPA Nationals MD this (quote) coupled with the way in which the DQ was handled sheds even more light on the event.

[Matthew_Mink]

What is disturbing to me is the amount of people speculating and getting hostile, and they weren't even there shooting the match. There have been plenty of people posting in this thread, that not only was actually AT the match, but were officials at it.

Over and over it has been said that none of the match officials noticed a pattern of the alleged behavior until afterwords, when they all compared notes. Does everybody that posts to this thread actually read all the replies, or do you just skip to the end????

JEEZ LOUISE FOLKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought the IDPA Nats was well ran, mostly well officiated, had good stages and was the funnest one I've shot to date. And this is not coming from a USPSA shooter, this is coming from a SHOOTER. I still don't understand the branding.

Edited September 28, 2005 by Matthew Mink

[shred]

Thanks Matt. I've been thinking about this and it seems possible--

One RO-- "Fred left my stage early and didn't help". 2nd RO- 'Hey, he did the same on mine!', 3rd RO "Same here" ...

I was not there and have no idea what the issues were in this particular case, but a blanket claim of "it's always wrong to DQ somebody after the match" seems short-sighted as well.

[TDean]

Matt, I think the "branding" starts on the first few pages of the IDPA rulebook. Bill takes several jabs at IPSC.

[Mark Perez]

Matt, I think the "branding" starts on the first few pages of the IDPA rulebook.  Bill takes several jabs at IPSC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IDPA is oerating under a new rule set - there is no mention of IPSC that I can find in the first 20 pages . If I am mistaken , please point them out.

until that day

Mark