broadside72 Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 13 minutes ago, bret said: You are preparing the gun to start the stage, you are still under the make ready command. The shooter has not completed his make ready. Once the range officer says are you ready, and you don't say no, and he starts the timer, and you react and start the stage, then you go to open for hammer back safety on in production. As written and read cold, the equipment requirements and 6.2.5.1 does not say while preparing. Only "during course of fire". Again I understand intent. I have sent a note to NROI about this particular issue. Maybe I'll get lucky and receive a response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, broadside72 said: As written and read cold, the equipment requirements and 6.2.5.1 does not say while preparing. Only "during course of fire". Again I understand intent. I have sent a note to NROI about this particular issue. Maybe I'll get lucky and receive a response. During the course of fire can ire holster a production gun with hammer back, safety on without getting bumped to open? Edited October 14, 2019 by bret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, bret said: During the course of fire can ire holster a production gun with hammer back, safety on without getting bumped to open? that is part of what I asked NROI about for clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 4 hours ago, robchavous said: Where in the rules does it say this rule only comes into effect "when you start shooting"? By my reading it says "during a course of fire" and the rulebook defines a course of fire as beginning at Make Ready. the production requirement is for *start condition*. It doesn't make sense to talk about start condition any other time but at the start beep. people very frequently have their guns in some condition other than the proper start condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 Just now, broadside72 said: that is part of what I asked NROI about for clarification That is two different issues, but you can reholster a production gun on safe and not be bumped to open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, broadside72 said: As written and read cold, the equipment requirements and 6.2.5.1 does not say while preparing. Only "during course of fire". Again I understand intent. I have sent a note to NROI about this particular issue. Maybe I'll get lucky and receive a response. 6.2.5.1 doesn't talk about start condition. Start conditions and division requirements are not really entirely the same thing, even tho it would be cool to try to screw shooters over on a meaningless technicality.... I hate to agree with Bret, but he is entirely right on this occasion... Edited October 14, 2019 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, bret said: During the course of fire can ire holster a production gun with hammer back, safety on without getting bumped to open? No. You can reholster in a valid ready condition (same as during make ready), and holstering cocked and locked violates the gear rules for production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 Just now, bret said: That is two different issues, but you can reholster a production gun on safe and not be bumped to open. I asked about both issues. I won't call anyone for reholstering on safe unless I hear different in a reply given the info I provided in my note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, NickBlasta said: No. You can reholster in a valid ready condition (same as during make ready), and holstering cocked and locked violates the gear rules for production. After the start signal you can reholster a production gun safety on, hammer back and not be bumped to open. Troy has discussed this before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, motosapiens said: 6.2.5.1 doesn't talk about start condition. Start conditions and division requirements are not really entirely the same thing, even tho it would be cool to try to screw shooters over on a meaningless technicality.... I hate to agree with Bret, but he is entirely right on this occasion... I am not disagreeing with him on the intent or practical application of the rule. Only the specific wording of them. You are correct that 6.2.5.1 does not talk about start condition but it does talk about equipment and OTHER requirements of a division "during the course of fire" as you know is from Make Ready to Range is Clear. D4/5 SC #1 says ready condition is hammer down. 8.1.2.3 for selective action firearms specifically references "Divisions in Appendix D". 8.2.5 allows for a shooter to holster their firearm according to the rules of 8.1, then given the above you are not complying with the division requirement for ready condition if you are hammer back/safety on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 I love debating in the weeds like this if you have not noticed. Practical application of rules, plain language of the rules, intent vs letter of the rules, etc. discussions are good for everyone, no matter how frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 6 minutes ago, bret said: After the start signal you can reholster a production gun safety on, hammer back and not be bumped to open. Troy has discussed this before. I don't see how you get there using the rulebook though. There's no printed exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 1 minute ago, NickBlasta said: I don't see how you get there using the rulebook though. There's no printed exception. It isn't clearly written in the rule book if the wsb says start outside the shooting area, I can have one foot inside the shooting area and 1 foot touching outside the shooting area and still be considered outside the shooting area. The rule book does not have a written rule for every conceivable situation that comes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, bret said: It isn't clearly written in the rule book if the wsb says start outside the shooting area, I can have one foot inside the shooting area and 1 foot touching outside the shooting area and still be considered outside the shooting area. The rule book does not have a written rule for every conceivable situation that comes up. Well you're complying with the start position, that seems clear to me. I mean there's no exception that prevents you from going to open. The logic chain is fairly complete imo, it says you can reholster according to 8.1, 8.1 references appendix D, D4 tells you the valid ready condition, reholstering in an invalid condition is a violation of the gear rules... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, NickBlasta said: Well you're complying with the start position, that seems clear to me. I mean there's no exception that prevents you from going to open. The logic chain is fairly complete imo, it says you can reholster according to 8.1, 8.1 references appendix D, D4 tells you the valid ready condition, reholstering in an invalid condition is a violation of the gear rules... Not after the start signal, the re holstered gun that is loaded just has to be re holstered in a safe condition, it does not have to be in the ready condition of that division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 1 minute ago, bret said: Not after the start signal, the re holstered gun that is loaded just has to be re holstered in a safe condition, it does not have to be in the ready condition of that division. I understand, but as written, "a ready condition in 8.1" says “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, orchamber loaded, and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D)." I could see it if the reference to Appendix D wasn't baked into the rule, but it is, which means you're violating it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, NickBlasta said: I understand, but as written, "a ready condition in 8.1" says “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, orchamber loaded, and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D)." I could see it if the reference to Appendix D wasn't baked into the rule, but it is, which means you're violating it. Ask DNROI, it has been discussed and articles written about it. I wish in the new rule book things like this would have been added for clarification, would make everyone's job easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdlrodeo Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 3 hours ago, broadside72 said: I love debating in the weeds like this if you have not noticed. Practical application of rules, plain language of the rules, intent vs letter of the rules, etc. discussions are good for everyone, no matter how frustrating. I find it pretty interesting as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 Let's all ask DNROI and while we are at it let's all suggest that division compliance be judged for all division at the start signal. It fixes almost all the rules rabbit holes we have gone down here recently, with the only practical change being out would no longer matter where shooters put mags when they stuff them in pockets after the start signal, something that is actually more practical than the restrictions.Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 15 hours ago, NickBlasta said: I understand, but as written, "a ready condition in 8.1" says “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, orchamber loaded, and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D)." You make a valid point Nick, but it is imho a point of the sort that people use to try to screw shooters over on a technicality, and it would be nice to update the rule slightly to prevent such people from doing so. It is pretty clear that the ready conditions are intended to apply to the start of the stage, and it would take a special kind of someone to imagine that the people writing the rules specifically intended to try to screw people over in the middle or end of a stage. The most common situation would be where you finish prone, and many shooters will put the gun on safe, get up, retrieve the gun, and then unload and show clear. Was the rule intended for me to bump a production shooter to open for using the safety instead of manually dropping the hammer by pulling the trigger? I think probably not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, MikeBurgess said: Let's all ask DNROI and while we are at it let's all suggest that division compliance be judged for all division at the start signal. It fixes almost all the rules rabbit holes we have gone down here recently, with the only practical change being out would no longer matter where shooters put mags when they stuff them in pockets after the start signal, something that is actually more practical than the restrictions. Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk I sent a note asking about the issues here with that suggestion. Hopefully more folks will jump on board and do the same. It would greatly simplify things. However, it needs to be done correctly so that it does not create a loophole during chrono and inspection stages. If chrono is verifying equipment, there is no start signal.... Edited October 15, 2019 by broadside72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, broadside72 said: I sent a note asking about the issues here with that suggestion. Hopefully more folks will jump on board and do the same. It would greatly simplify things. However, it needs to be done correctly so that it does not create a loophole during chrono and inspection stages. If chrono is verifying equipment, there is no start signal.... include your area director he will need to vote for any proposed change how about this fix for your concern (and a valid one) equipment/division compliance during a course of fire will only be judged at the start signal. equipment checks outside a course of fire will continue to be valid, such as at chronograph or at the request of match staff, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 1 minute ago, MikeBurgess said: include your area director he will need to vote for any proposed change how about this fix for your concern (and a valid one) equipment/division compliance during a course of fire will only be judged at the start signal. equipment checks outside a course of fire will continue to be valid, such as at chronograph or at the request of match staff, etc. as my shooting buddies say, "Just send it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UFO Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 I would say this may address that: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackCage Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 This offense occurred at a level 2 match. The shooter commonly shoots the same gun (Shadow 2) in Limited, although not very competitively. Not that the rules care about competitiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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