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Wiseguy724

Tanfoglio Mags getting stuck

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UPDATE: Added photos confirming my suspicions. still need a solution though! https://imgur.com/a/z1nRaei

 

Hello all,

 

Posting here because this might not be a tanfoglio specific problem. I have been battling mag problems for a while in my limited gun in 40. Sometimes when I hit the mag release, the mag only comes out a little bit before getting stuck. I have a hard time reproducing this problem on demand, and I label my magazines and found that they all do it intermittently so I know its not a "problem child" magazine.

 

Sometimes a little flick will get it out but other times I'm violently flipping the gun left to right to get the mag out. This past match I actually had to take the reload i had in my left hand and slap it back onto my belt magnet so I could rip the mag out.

 

At first I thought this was due to mags bulging, so I loaded to 19 instead of 20 but still had problems. When loaded to 19 the mags bulge about 0.025" total. In an attempt to relieve this I bought an (extremely expensive) MBX magazine to test, it has about 0.005" thicker steel walls and a different tube from mec-gar and bulged significantly less when loaded to 20. I still had the problem.

 

I think I have finally have determined the cause of this issue to actually be a result of the nose of the bullet sticking out too far forward when I hit the release. So that top round is dragging on the front strap side of the magwell on the way down.

 

I'm not sure what to do about this, I currently load 180gr bayous to 1.125" over 4.1gr of titegroup in mecgar k40 mags with hennings basepads and grams spring/follower kits. They feed beautifully, I never get jams, it's only a release problem. My only guess is that I could try a .400 bullet vs the .401 to make my rounds a bit less likely to drag on each other while the gun is cycling, but I wasn't sure if that's enough to make a difference. Plus from what I've read polygonal rifling likes .401 better as well as .401 being better for cast/coated bullets anyway.

 

Any suggestions? really tired of throwing stages away due to this problem! I have actually developed stage anxiety over this, and even considered moving to production so I can live a simpler life at only 10 rounds.

Edited by Wiseguy724

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Have you checked to see if the mag feed lips have opened up a bit??  This would cause the rim to bit at a bit sharper angle and allow it to drag more on the round under it pulling it out slightly.  

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Have you checked to see if the magazine gets caught when you push the  mag release in lightly versus really, really hard?

 

A friend could bind his CZ mag in the gun by mashing the button and staying on it, like you would in a match. Drive the button in deep enough and it would go in deeply enough to pinch against the magazine from the thumb side of the gun, after releasing the mag from the notch on the far side..

 

Calmly giving it a tap to eject the mag didn’t cause this in practice or at the workbench. You had to do high-pressure fullspeed reloads.

 

A 1/32” worth of grinding removed with a dremel cured it forever.

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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I know the problem you speak of with over-pressing and unfortunately it's not that, back side of mag release never touches the mag body, no matter how hard the press it never comes past flush. I have found the problem, will try and post pics shortly, still need a fix.

 

pictures of nose drag confirmed. I made up some dummy rounds and assembled the gun with no recoil spring, after chambering a round i could watch with a flashlight that the next in the mag was dragged out all the way until it contacted to trigger bar plunger like in the picture, pressed mag release, got stuck, than was able to gently remove the slide without disturbing the malfunction to take pics. slowly worked mag out to take the next 2 pictures. https://imgur.com/a/z1nRaei
Edited by Wiseguy724
added link

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36 minutes ago, NoSteel said:

Have you checked to see if the mag feed lips have opened up a bit??  This would cause the rim to bit at a bit sharper angle and allow it to drag more on the round under it pulling it out slightly.  

 

Haven't touched the feed lips since they were new so I'm not sure. All the mec-gar k40's are at .379-.382", the MBX is .375"

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Are you running the stock mag release?  I was having the same issue with a Limited Custom a few months ago.  I polished the disconnector rail, radiused the front corner of the rail and the breech face, all to no avail.  My problem ended up being the extended magazine release with the button on it that I had put in right when I got the gun.  The mag catch part was thinner than the stock catch and held the magazine at a slightly different height than stock, which was causing rounds to drag way forward.  Very frustrating and completely fixed by going back to the stock mag release.  Stoeger also told me he had seen the problem with people using MBX magazines, though I never tried them personally.

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it's the extended mag release, i thought they came with these? The original was butchered by the previous owner so I replaced it with the extended silver one. It started life as an elite limited so I figured it was ok.

resize2.jpg

Edited by Wiseguy724

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The one I'm talking about has a button on it like a CZ Shadow 2.  it is a factory part and I've seen unica ones in colors, but at least the one I have is visibly thinner at the part that goes in the mag from the one i got with the gun.

mag catch

 

I was able to replicate my problem if I hand cycled the gun quickly with ammo in it. See if you have any up and down plan in your mag when it is seated.

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added picture of my current button. Thanks for the thought, do you have any play at all? I did my best to get a measurement, seems to be able to move maybe .025- .030" total travel.

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The pictures you added confirm what you suspected with bullet being dragged out of mag.  The only time I ever saw this was before the Mecgar mags came out and I was using 10mm Witness mags for long .40..  Have you tried to run a mag full of factory ammo thru it?  If those don't exhibit the fail and only the reloads do it is probably due to the coke bottling of the case.  

 

Be very interesting to have member  KneelingAtlas provide input on this Topic....

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yes I had some 10mm mags and used to load long to try and get them to work, that was a disaster. These worked great for a period. I ordered fresh springs as these have been in there for a very long time, years. I'll keep updating as things develop. Maybe the increased tension will help keep that top bullet pressed firmly against the lips, preventing drag-out. Have a brand new henning-grams-mecgar mag setup incoming as well to get a baseline feed lip dimension to see if mine have spread. Thanks to all those who have replied.

 

I'll try factory ammo the next time I get a chance to shoot, probably this weekend.

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You could try stretching a current mag spring a bit and trying it..  If it initially runs ok then degrades that would confirm your spring theory.....  

Good luck with this one...

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It seems to be my ammo.

 

Bought a box of Winchester white box just to see how they behaved, those hardly drag out at all. I pulled the firing pin and recoil spring to do some more hand cycling. I would run the slide back and forth over the loaded mag to try and shimmy the top round forward, couldn't get it to budge much at all on the white box. With my self loaded stuff I can work the slide back and forth a few times while looking into the chamber and i can see them getting dragged forward. The white box ammo projectiles are around .396-.399 dia, with the max dia of the case never exceeding .420 . Mine start at .421 and maybe get a little bigger to about .422 on some. an extra thou on each x 19 rounds adds up. Will report back after more fiddling. I think maybe I'll try .400 instead of .401 projectiles to reduce the diameter a bit. Maybe some extra care to get my brass more smooth and polished will help too. Slowly but surely working this issue out!

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I'm going to assume your reloads are probably coke bottle shaped a bit?  When I was loading for my Witness I used a U-die to get a bit undersized, cases were always overly distorted.  Are you using a case lube??  Do you tumble the rounds after their done to get the residual lube off??  The factory stuff running fine should help lead you down the path to correct this...

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Yes mine seem to coke bottle a bit, they are wide where the bullet sits, then they taper inwards, then flare back out at the bottom close to the rim. It's not dramatic but it is measurable. Before I load I lube with a light oil in a ziploc bag, I knead them thoroughly with a nitrile gloved hand for a while until they are coated evenly. I have a can of Hornady one shot in the mail that I was going to give a try. I just got a super 1050 set up this past weekend so I'm hoping that spray will work out nicely. I don't tumble afterwards currently.

 

To be clear I didn't fire the gun with factory ammo yet, just hand cycled with good results. With various other home made rounds I hand cycle and the first 2 or 3 may cause the mag to hang when I try to eject it, then it cycles fine, then the last 5 or 6 rounds will also hang the mag up on ejection so it's repeatable now at this point.

 

Blue .400 projectiles are on the way, they are located a few blocks from me so hope they are here tomorrow. I also ordered some processed brass from east coast reloading supply (also down the highway from me a bit) to see if maybe some better processed brass will also help. Do you recommend the undersized die? Could you tell me more about the reasoning behind running that die? I know enough about loading to make my ammo but I don't have a ton of experience outside setting up my old press for this one guns particular load, and just loading that without change for the past few years.

Edited by Wiseguy724

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Back when I used to shoot EAA/Tanfo Limited guns this "Top Round Getting Biased Forward, causing mags not to drop free" issue was always a problem on new slides or guns. The root of the issue is the sharp corner on the bottom edge of the breach face. The bottom edge of the breach face is what is used to pick the top round out of the magazine when the slide cycles. If the bottom edge of the breach face is a sharp 90 degree edge it will catch on the next round in the mag and pull it forward like you are experiencing. The solution is to file the bottom edge of the breach face to round it off and smooth it out. That way when it scrapes across the "next" round it can't push it forward. I had to make this modification to nearly all of the EAA/Tanfo Limited guns I owned. Why they don't do that from the factory to start off with is beyond my understanding.

 

This issue also gets worse the more your brass has a coke bottle shape when you load it because there is more of a dip for the breach face edge to catch on in the middle of the brass.

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Chamferred the edge of the breech face, still causing the issue. Also got in my .400 projectiles, loaded up a batch still no luck. One shot case lube and the pre-processed brass from ECRS should be here tomorrow. If that last combo doesn't fix it I will be returning the super 1050 and selling the gun, bummed. I was actually about to just buy a brand new xtreme Limited and hope that a new gun would sort it, like maybe I had a lemon with this gun since it's given me problems since day 1.

 

Any hope that an undersized-die (U-die) would be worth a shot? I'm just at wits end with this.

 

Do cz shadows face this problem? What about 1911 people? I'm bummed that all these years the problem was that I can't make ammo well enough, not the gun.

 

some pics of my chamfer, its polished so much it reflects light like crazy, hard to get a picture but I made an attempt, wasn't sure how much material to remove.

 

Also couldn't polish the rail, the previous owner had it ceramic coated or something and I just cant get through it with sandpaper or polish, it's very tough.

20190929_011340.jpg

Edited by Wiseguy724

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The edge being rounded and smooth is more important than the angle.

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The more coke bottle shape the brass has the worse this issue will be. An EGW U-Die will make the coke bottle shape more pronounced.

 

You can also polish the rib under the slide that goes back from the breach face edge. If there is excessive friction there it will pull the next round forward. I used to polish that rib and also keep it lubed well to minimize the friction. 

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The amount of brass shown on the rib in your picture shows that there is a lot of friction there. If it is polished and lubed well enough there shouldn’t be any brass transfer to the rib.

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11 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

The amount of brass shown on the rib in your picture shows that there is a lot of friction there. If it is polished and lubed well enough there shouldn’t be any brass transfer to the rib.

Thank you for your replies cha-lee.

 

I tried sanding and polishing that rib but the ceramic coating just shrugged off my efforts. I will make another attempt with something coarser than 800 to see if I can get through to the base metal.

 

If angle isn't as important than I recon that radius on my breech is adequate, its smooth as glass now.

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Well folks, the problem may have been solved.

 

Took a sanding wheel on the dremel to that rib and after many sparks that ceramic coating finally came off. Followed by a non trivial amount of time wet sanding with 800, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500 grit paper and final finish with red jewelers rouge polish, and I have a mirror for a rail now. This seems to have done it, even with my "wonky" coke bottle bayous, they don't seem to drag out anymore. I will get to a range this weekend, but had no instances with my hand cycling, then hard racking with the recoil spring re-installed again seem to show that the problem is over.

 

In any case, that pre-processed brass from ECRS is very very high quality, and I will go with them for my match ammo forwards anyway, just to be beyond sure. And this journey has caused me to learn a lot more about re-loading so it wasn't all bad.

 

THANK YOU so much to everyone who has given input, every little bit put together has fixed this issue for me, after 4 years I may finally be able to trust this gun. Will report back after a range test.

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