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ajblack

Leaving the shooting area during course of fire

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At a match the other day, a stage description stated that the shooter may not leave the shooting area during the course of fire.  I had never seen this before, and I couldn't find anything in the rule book to state one way or the other.  This particular stage didn't leave any reason to leave the shooting area, so it didn't come up in my squad.  But is this legal stage design?  I've been under the impression that you were free to leave the shooting area in between shots.

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They can only do so through forbidden actions and off limits areas that are predefined in the WSB

 

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12 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

They can only do so through forbidden actions and off limits areas that are predefined in the WSB

 

 

This

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Also take a look at 10.2.9. You can disallow leaving the shooting area and returning to it, but only in Classifiers, Standard Exercises, and Level 1 matches. 

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35 minutes ago, DKorn said:

Also take a look at 10.2.9. You can disallow leaving the shooting area and returning to it, but only in Classifiers, Standard Exercises, and Level 1 matches. 

Thanks for the clarification.  If I'm done shooting and then step outside the shooting area to unload and show clear is that subject to a procedural at 10.2.9?  I'm not sure how it could be since there's no shots fired.  This particular stage ended with a target that required a lean, and the WSB stated "Competitor may not exit Area A during the Course of Fire".  If a shooter takes the last target while falling out the shooting area then there is no penalty correct?  The shooter will be outside the shooting area by the time they unload and show clear, but a procedural can't be applied for falling out the shooting area as they make their last shot?

 

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I don't see how a real match can have this rule.


I also don't see how 10.2.9 can ever be applied. If you step out with one foot, don't fire a shot, then step back in, 10.2.9 says it's 1 PE per shot. Forever? For the entire stage? 

 

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5 minutes ago, waktasz said:

I don't see how a real match can have this rule.


I also don't see how 10.2.9 can ever be applied. If you step out with one foot, don't fire a shot, then step back in, 10.2.9 says it's 1 PE per shot. Forever? For the entire stage? 

 

 

I can’t ever see reasonably using it on a long course, but could see something like a standards stage with more than one shooting box and the WSB specifying that once you leave a box you can’t go back. It’s a weird rule for sure. 

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10.2.9 discusses leaving a 'shooting location', not a 'shooting area'.  It does not apply at all in this case, it seems.

 

2.3.1.1 seems to define the applicable rules regarding "Forbidden Actions" and "Off-Limits Area".  If the WSB meets that criteria in 2.3.1.1 (a)-(d), it's legal.

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Sounds like a chicken sh!+ match to me. It seems they wanted to make everybody lean instead of shooting on the way out which goes against all that is holy, freestyle.

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14 hours ago, Sarge said:

Sounds like a chicken sh!+ match to me. It seems they wanted to make everybody lean instead of shooting on the way out which goes against all that is holy, freestyle.

 

That's pretty much my reaction!  

 

If non-classifier stages have lots of crazy directions and requirements, about 95+% of the time, it means the MD either has a poor command of the rules, lacks a basic understanding of what "freestyle" means, or both.  Complexity in the sport should come from stage design, not from stage instructions.  This ain't IDPA (thank God).  

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1 hour ago, jstagn said:

AJ what stage was that, I forgot?

At MPSA, it was stage 6, "Claustrophobic Aggression".  The way it was described in the match briefing, after stepping into the shooting area, any steps outside the shooting area prior to "Range is Clear" would result in a PE.  I know how this goes against the whole "freestyle" idea of USPSA, but there are plenty of standards stages that specify shooting boxes, reloads, etc.  I was more curious about how you would be able to get a penalty for an action with no shooting (as pointed out by others in this thread).

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Since that was very tight (try drawing and unloading with an open gun), I think stepping outside to show clear would have been a requirement rather than a penalty, but he did announce at the shooters meeting. It would have made more sense to have that on stage 4 so shooters would be forced to shoot around the no shoot instead of leaning and falling out of the box to shoot the last target.

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1 hour ago, jstagn said:

 so shooters would be forced to shoot around the no shoot instead of leaning and falling out of the box to shoot the last target.

 

But why is that even a desirable objective?  

 

And if it is, why not just use TWO targets that require a lean such that shooting all the required shots while falling becomes impracticable?  Or comes with a major time loss, as people fall out of the box and then have to get back in to fall out again?  Or make the 2nd target a mini-popper, such that trying to squeeze in the 3rd shot while falling becomes a massive risk/reward decision?

 

Why are some people so bent on making people shoot something a particular way?  

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1 hour ago, driver8M3 said:

Was this a short, medium or long course?

Medium course, I believe it was like 16 rounds.

 

17 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

 

But why is that even a desirable objective?  

 

And if it is, why not just use TWO targets that require a lean such that shooting all the required shots while falling becomes impracticable?  Or comes with a major time loss, as people fall out of the box and then have to get back in to fall out again?  Or make the 2nd target a mini-popper, such that trying to squeeze in the 3rd shot while falling becomes a massive risk/reward decision?

 

Why are some people so bent on making people shoot something a particular way?  

I agree, but I wasn't really trying to hash out MD decision making processes.  I was just trying to determine the legality of that requirement.  I suppose that it's not something you would really see in a major match since those stages go through a vetting process.

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18 hours ago, ajblack said:

I agree, but I wasn't really trying to hash out MD decision making processes.  I was just trying to determine the legality of that requirement.  

 

Understood.  It's just funny how many of the questionably or plainly illegal stage designs/stage descriptions/stage instructions arise because of a misguided attempt to "force" this or that.  If you don't try to "force" things, it's quite easy to stay within the rules.  It only gets "tricky" to design legal stages when the MD is determined to find some way to fit a "force" requirement into the stage.  

 

It's almost as if the rules on course design were written specifically to discourage MD's from taking a "force" approach to their designs!  Eventually most MD's get the hint, but it's very common for newer MD's to go through a phase of excessive "forcing."    

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On 9/23/2019 at 5:00 PM, BiknSwans said:

10.2.9 discusses leaving a 'shooting location', not a 'shooting area'.  It does not apply at all in this case, it seems.

 

2.3.1.1 seems to define the applicable rules regarding "Forbidden Actions" and "Off-Limits Area".  If the WSB meets that criteria in 2.3.1.1 (a)-(d), it's legal.

 

See 2.3.1.1 B , Forbidden Actions can only be to maintain safety and specifically can not force or prevent movement. They mentioned it was a tight shot that some would take while exiting but not yet touching the ground. There may be more to this but on that aspect it’s not a legal forbidden action.

 

In this case your best bet is to first ask “why can’t we leave the shooting area?” And then listen to the response to determine if it’s safety related and a valid Forbidden Action.

 

However, as an MD myself, we make mistakes and I am sure if you pointed out the rule to him privately he would be receptive. I have had too many shooters attempt to point out legality of things during a match or in a group setting in a less than tactful way and sometimes turn out to be wrong. It can get frustrating when someone points something out almost as if they are glad you messed up versus trying to point something out that is incorrect, but in a tactful way in an effort to make us all better at applying the rules.

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Must be  my night to recall Nationals at PASA.  A COF was setup using planks ( a few inches of the ground) that defined the shooting area.  The WSG statement was to effect, you can step off (fall off) the plank but must re-enter the shooting area/plank within a step of where you exited.  If I remember correctly, it also had a disappearing target seen through a port which most shooters ignored-NPM.

 

The High Desert Classic had a plank stage with a similar statement.  

 

Some stages with a L-Shape had almost all targets available within a few steps of the start position, the beginning of the long side, then competitors cut across the open ground to take the last few targets that were only available at the end of the COF.  

 

 

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What year was that?  Had to be more than 15 years ago

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13 hours ago, waktasz said:

What year was that?  Had to be more than 15 years ago

I have been on Social Security for a while now, so you are probably right.

I think I started going to Nationals around 2004

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I wasn't around prior to the 2008 (I think) rulebook so it had to be from before then...because you can't do that

Edited by waktasz

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I d believe IPSC has this rule about not leaving the shooting area like cutting corners and such, Don't really like  the rule , so if a stage designer wants shooter to stay with in the shooting area do it with props (walls or fences) that force the shooters to stay in the area, forbidden actions and just saying that shooter has to stay in shooting area is just bad stage design 

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