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Production-15: Make Production Great Again!


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I was happy with the rules prior to the recent opening of the floodgates, but I guess if you have a plastic gun it's nice now that you can get a fancy metal aftermarket trigger and not have to try to get by with internal modifications only. It doesn't affect me either way, I shoot a tanfo (well, I used to ;p) 

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Combining Single Stack with Production into one division could be an entertaining  move... maybe...

 

Don't get me wrong. I used to shoot production and still do it once in a while. I personally like it a lot. I own and like Shadow 2s (along with shadow 1s) but it is undeniable that the division is becoming marginal compared to what it used to be because it lost its niche due to many factors.  Personally, I think it is all fine and we just need to accept the new reality. 

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1 hour ago, cheby said:

10rd limit is not what is killing production.

 

Considering that nothing is "killing Production," watching yet another round of people trying to justify changing the rules to match their personal wants when they have nothing to do with making the division better, is just as amusing as always.

 

Rowdy had a good comment in that pretty much the only intelligent realistic change to Production would be making it match IPSC rules, because that would be the only change that had an actual reason behind it that made any sense.

 

That being said, I doubt that we would ever do that (and I certainly hope not) because that would cause a lot of issues for people who shoot Production currently in USPSA.  I personally see no reason to match IPSC, but I can understand that it at least has a valid argument justifying it.

 

Everything else so far has just been people saying things without providing any justification that would support the idea that Production entries would increase due to their changes.

 

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8 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

Considering that nothing is "killing Production," watching yet another round of people trying to justify changing the rules to match their personal wants when they have nothing to do with making the division better, is just as amusing as always.

 

.

 

I am not proposing changing any rules. I am fine with the way it is . However, the division is losing its popularity. It  is a fact. This thread kind of proves it, BTW. 

We are trying to understand why it is happening. The OP suggests the 10rd limit could be a reason. It might, but as you can see there are a lot of other factors.   

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Breakdown for the local match this Sunday; Production is almost even with Open, close to Limited, but they're all behind CO.  Not sure what the numbers have historically been but it's not as if (for this match, anyway) Production is suffering too badly. 

 

Limited 18

Open 16

Production 15

Revolver 3

Single Stack 4

Pcc 12

Carry Optics 28

Edited by Eric802
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Last 2 matches i have been to 45 total shooters, 3 in production, which happens to be the same as L10, haha.   Open, limited and CO are big here.  One of the clubs has historically  had very few production shooters, the other one used to have quite a few.

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We've added two divisions in the last few years, that means all divisions have to get smaller. Even if you change the rules to "fix" production and do succeed in bringing shooters back, that will mean some other division is suffering. If we continue with that logic, this other division will then need rule changes. Before long nobody will even know the rules and we'll change the name to IDPA

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4 hours ago, cheby said:

10rd limit is not what is killing production. The 47 Oz, $2K Limited 10Minor guns are. If you want to shoot iron sights now, Limited is the better option.   

 

only if people want to buy them. Nils still seems to do ok with crappy plastic guns in production, despite only shooting it a couple times a year.

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3 hours ago, Umbrarian said:

I do not shoot any divisions with an artificial mag limit on my gun. I know others do the same.

 

If my gun comes factory with a 15/17/etc magazine, that is what I want to shoot.

most people don't. that's why we get extensions for our limited and open and CO guns and pcc's.... just sayin'.

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6 hours ago, Thomas H said:

Considering that nothing is "killing Production," watching yet another round of people trying to justify changing the rules to match their personal wants when they have nothing to do with making the division better, is just as amusing as always.

I don't want to change Production because I have any problem with the division in its current state.  As I have mentioned multiple times, I do not give a crap about the round limit in Production and I am fine with the rules the way they are.  However, participation in Production has been falling off since the introduction of other minor-only divisions.  It therefore seems logical that in order to stay relevant, Production needs an identity that allows it to compete for participation with PCC and CO.  "The iron sight minor-only division" sounds a lot more attractive than "the minor-only division with the lowest hit factors and all the reloads."

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What if it's falling off because Ben has murdered everyone for 8? years in a row and people see the other divisions without dominant champions and decided to go that route?  Or what if like Mike said...adding two more divisions is going to spread out the shooters among, surprise, two more divisions.

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The best idea is to merge SS, L10, Production, and Revolver. 

 

1. Keep the production/SS box

2. Keep Production/SS holster and gear rules. 

3. Rob the 8 major/10 minor rule from SS. 

4. Let revolvers do whatever they want (who even cares about revolver, anyway???).

 

Call it “lo-cap” or something and be done with it. 

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Could it be that production has just kinda run its course and people are just ready to do something else, and no amount of "fixing" will put numbers on a consistent upswing?  SS was never big, but it was bigger than it is now, people just don't care to shoot it much, maybe production is moving down that same road?  People vote with their pocketbook and if something seems mo better than production for around the same money, maybe they are choosing it and there is no "cure" for production.  IDK, just a thought

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I came back into USPSA when Production was introduced. It has changed a lot.

I don't see why we can't review/change the magazine capacity for a year and see where it leads.

 

The world will not end if we can shoot 17 round magazines in 2020 and then look at the issue again going forward.

 

 

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Nobody is willing to Try anything, because historically there's no way Provisional anything doesn't get made permanent.

 

If that wasn't the case, we could do a lot more experiments.

 

 

 

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On 11/22/2019 at 4:55 PM, motosapiens said:

most people don't. that's why we get extensions for our limited and open and CO guns and pcc's.... just sayin'.

Not talking about extending, I was talking about shortening.

 

I fled NJ, no way I am going back to artificial Mag Limits.

Edited by Umbrarian
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This thread is still alive? 

On 11/22/2019 at 3:15 PM, Eric802 said:

Breakdown for the local match this Sunday; Production is almost even with Open, close to Limited, but they're all behind CO.  Not sure what the numbers have historically been but it's not as if (for this match, anyway) Production is suffering too badly. 

 

Limited 18

Open 16

Production 15

Revolver 3

Single Stack 4

Pcc 12

Carry Optics 28

 

It's because fast reloads and shooting iron sights is difficult for most. That's also what makes production great. 

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On 10/1/2019 at 10:14 AM, shred said:

We should just remove the mandatory dot requirement in CO.  It's silly and then there's a nice handy load-em-up all-Minor division right there.

 

On 10/1/2019 at 11:18 AM, TrackCage said:

This is a far more interesting topic, right here.

Doesn't the legend go that USPSA brass added the dot requirement for fear that Stoeger would win the first carry optics title w/o a dot gun? I heard this second hand, so don't know for sure.

 

On 10/1/2019 at 12:28 PM, MikeBurgess said:

I argued for this in the beginning.  I also argued that CO should be able to have a laser or light attached, as all those seem to go together on guns outside competition. 

 

You can have co-witness sights and there's no obligation to turn the dot on, so why require the dot in the first place? I'd support this move.

 

On 11/22/2019 at 1:11 PM, cheby said:

Combining Single Stack with Production into one division could be an entertaining  move... maybe...

 

Don't get me wrong. I used to shoot production and still do it once in a while. I personally like it a lot. I own and like Shadow 2s (along with shadow 1s) but it is undeniable that the division is becoming marginal compared to what it used to be because it lost its niche due to many factors.  Personally, I think it is all fine and we just need to accept the new reality. 

 

On 11/23/2019 at 9:32 AM, HCH said:

The best idea is to merge SS, L10, Production, and Revolver. 

 

1. Keep the production/SS box

2. Keep Production/SS holster and gear rules. 

3. Rob the 8 major/10 minor rule from SS. 

4. Let revolvers do whatever they want (who even cares about revolver, anyway???).

 

Call it “lo-cap” or something and be done with it. 

 

I also find a Lo-Cap iron sight division interesting, though I'd leave it to just a SS and Production merger. 8 Major or 10 Minor seems like a decent balance and it'd be a boon for the lagging SS division. I already compare my SS scores to Production guys anyways. I'd be wary of letting L10 guns into that group though.

 

I primarily shoot Production and like shooting the limited capacity divisions. I wouldn't want it to change to a 15 shot division.

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On 11/22/2019 at 11:53 PM, waktasz said:

What if it's falling off because Ben has murdered everyone for 8? years

 

Does it really matter to most people though?  I dont think it does TBH.... or any other division champion status. Because most people (like 99% of us) are not in the running for that position, not at the national or area levels.  I think CO is growing because most dudes' eyes are getting older and they are finding that getting a slide milled and putting a red dot on the same exact gun and using the same exact gear is an easy and inexpensive way to keep enjoying their weekend warrior participation levels.   

 

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7 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

 

Does it really matter to most people though?  I dont think it does TBH.... or any other division champion status. Because most people (like 99% of us) are not in the running for that position, not at the national or area levels.  I think CO is growing because most dudes' eyes are getting older and they are finding that getting a slide milled and putting a red dot on the same exact gun and using the same exact gear is an easy and inexpensive way to keep enjoying their weekend warrior participation levels.   

 

If its a discussion about why CO is taking off at the cost of other divisions I think the answer is this

Open= super fast super cool, BUT finicky, expensive guns that need special ammo 

Limited= pretty fast pretty cool, BUT sort of finicky expensive guns that need special ammo and iron sights are hard

Production= not as fast not as cool, Iron sights are hard, minor scoring But affordable reliable guns and whatever ammo

CO= almost as fast as open, affordable, reliable guns, whatever ammo, optics are easier BUT minor scoring 

 

When you break it down CO really is the most bang for your buck 

 

 

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