Production-15: Make Production Great Again!

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, Matt1 said:

 

You don’t have to live with a 3lb SA in a Shadow 2. Mines right on 2lb and I have to play by IPSC rules.


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The "live with" part was meant to be a little sarcastic. The point being a 50 oz 9mm DA/SA guns isn't really that far off from a limited gun in minor. If 2 lbs is doable it just makes Production 15 that much more like Limited minor.

[NickBlasta]

On 9/19/2019 at 4:33 PM, Tanders said:

Nick, you're classified in Production, right?  What would it take for me to talk you into pulling out a Glock for a club match or two?

 

I /am/ a Glockmeister now..

[Tanders]

On 9/25/2019 at 4:58 PM, HoMiE said:

Having to do reloads is not what keeps new people from coming out and shooting matches. It’s the perception that you have to have some high dollar tricked out gun to compete or be competitive. The 10 round limit made it equitable across all states and didn’t exclude guns that have 12, 13 or 15 round mag capacities.

If you shoot production 15 as Limited minor, then just look at the results for those people if that’s what you want to compare yourself too. I’ve seen plenty of shooters shoot Limited minor and beat others shooting major.

 

Having to run weird nonlinear stage plans in order to plan around reloading every 10 rounds frequently does drive people away from Production to other divisions as soon as they can get guns that enable them to compete elsewhere.  There are also way too many nationally competitive GMs shooting plastic guns for anyone to think that you need an expensive gun to win Production matches.

 

I addressed the 10-round limit in certain states in my original post.  If you live in a Commie state and you are involved enough in the sport to want to travel to matches in unrestricted states, then you are involved enough to figure out how a rivet gun works.  A lot of the MDs in Commies state ignore the capacity limits anyway.

 

Are there any 9mm Production-legal gun which have a capacity low enough to be excluded by a 15-round limit?  Besides, if a newbie wants to run a .40 or .45 that only holds 12 rounds, wouldn't they be better served by starting out in Limited 10?

 

I looked up your classification record and it seems like you shoot Production pretty often.  I'm genuinely curious what aspects of the division you find most appealing (for me it's iron sights and minor power factor).  Are any of those aspects directly dependent on the 10-round limit?  As I said before, I don't really care about 10 vs. 15 rounds as long as people aren't jumping ship for Limited or CO, but the round limit does seem to make Production less interesting to watch; a well-executed 10-round stage plan doesn't flow very well or look all that cool, even at the highest levels.  I honestly don't understand why a significant portion of the membership is so driven to keep things exactly as they are even if changes may improve participation in a division that seems to be drying up.

[HoMiE]

3 hours ago, Tanders said:

Having to run weird nonlinear stage plans in order to plan around reloading every 10 rounds frequently does drive people away from Production to other divisions as soon as they can get guns that enable them to compete elsewhere.  There are also way too many nationally competitive GMs shooting plastic guns for anyone to think that you need an expensive gun to win Production matches.

 

I addressed the 10-round limit in certain states in my original post.  If you live in a Commie state and you are involved enough in the sport to want to travel to matches in unrestricted states, then you are involved enough to figure out how a rivet gun works.  A lot of the MDs in Commies state ignore the capacity limits anyway.

 

Are there any 9mm Production-legal gun which have a capacity low enough to be excluded by a 15-round limit?  Besides, if a newbie wants to run a .40 or .45 that only holds 12 rounds, wouldn't they be better served by starting out in Limited 10?

 

I looked up your classification record and it seems like you shoot Production pretty often.  I'm genuinely curious what aspects of the division you find most appealing (for me it's iron sights and minor power factor).  Are any of those aspects directly dependent on the 10-round limit?  As I said before, I don't really care about 10 vs. 15 rounds as long as people aren't jumping ship for Limited or CO, but the round limit does seem to make Production less interesting to watch; a well-executed 10-round stage plan doesn't flow very well or look all that cool, even at the highest levels.  I honestly don't understand why a significant portion of the membership is so driven to keep things exactly as they are even if changes may improve participation in a division that seems to be drying up.

I shoot production with a Glock g34 and love the challenge of trying to keep up with other divisions that don’t have to reload. The division has a low barrier to entry, I shot with uncle mike mag pouches in the beginning and a bladetech Kydex holster. Most of the stages have turned into shoot 8, reload, shoot 8, shoot 8 reload, etc anyway. Keeping it to a 10 round division makes it the most inclusive to gun and caliber option, and other sport crossover like idpa or steel challenge. Switching it to 15 rounds is just a couple of rounds away from it being Limited minor. Having to do one less reload isn’t going to increase in my opinion. Most people that I know shooting in production appreciate the 10 round limit as it is the great equalizer and no matter what gun you have, you have to be good at reloads. 

[Joe4d]

git rid of L10, SS, revolver and production,
Create Limited 10/8 with the caveate of .357 allowed to make major in revolver only. 10 round minor 8 round major. IDPA ESP and SSP scores as well as USPSA hitfactors , as well as modern stryker guns make the fear of single actions irrational.
Limited minor, 140 mags, box and weight limit,
Limited major current rules.
Open minor, current CO rules.
Open major current Open.
 

[OdinIII]

I honestly don't understand why a significant portion of the membership is so driven to keep things exactly as they are even if changes may improve participation in a division that seems to be drying up.

Production is too close to Limited already. Higher mag capacity would only make that worse. If Production dries up at 10 rounds then it’ll be because of the loosening of the rules and not the lo-cap.

[motosapiens]

On 9/20/2019 at 12:05 PM, Racinready300ex said:

 

So lets see Shadow 2's weight 47 oz but by our rules you could add what 4 so now where at 51. (more than my limited gun), but you get to shoot minor. You have to suffer with a DA shot for the first pull then bare with a 3 lbs SA trigger after that. Add a race holster and 15 round mags.

do all that and nils will still beat you shooting a glock. and so will pretty much all other shooters that are better than you.

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

do all that and nils will still beat you shooting a glock. and so will pretty much all other shooters that are better than you.

 

So do away with all divisions and go back to run what you brung, doesn't matter Nils still beats you.

[motosapiens]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

So do away with all divisions and go back to run what you brung, doesn't matter Nils still beats you.

Now you're being silly. Nils won't always beat limited and open guys if he is scored minor.

 

minor scoring, the box, and magazine limits mean production is not competitive with limited. limited will always have a provable advantage among shooters of equal skill, so separate divisions makes sense.

 

OTOH, cz shadow 2's don't appear to have a provable advantage over lightly modified glocks, they are just more pleasurable for some people to shoot.

[Racinready300ex]

45 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Now you're being silly. Nils won't always beat limited and open guys if he is scored minor.

 

minor scoring, the box, and magazine limits mean production is not competitive with limited. limited will always have a provable advantage among shooters of equal skill, so separate divisions makes sense.

 

OTOH, cz shadow 2's don't appear to have a provable advantage over lightly modified glocks, they are just more pleasurable for some people to shoot.

 

You're right, major and minor scoring make them different I've never said it didn't. Gear wise limited and production don't seem that much different, take away the 10 round capacity just makes them that much more similar.

 

Based on Nat's results 2011's don't appear to have a provable advantage over glocks in limited either. Other then adding weight(offset by recoil) and capacity, a Limited glock and a production glock are the same.

[Racinready300ex]

Instead of production 15, we should just kill production and L10. Then make Limited minor only with a 15 round capacity. Then we merge the two divisions into one super division where everyone can continue to shoot their current gun competitively or upgrade if they feel the need to.

 

9 or 40 can both load minor and fit 15 rounds in 140 mags. Production guys can add a mag well if they want, maybe some limited guns go on a diet. Maybe some glock shooters add wieght to fit in. Really it could be a win, win. Or we just add it, you can never have to many divisions.

[cheby]

The question is not that Nils or any other better shooters shooting any gun would win.

The real question is if Nils shooting, say, Shadow 2 would bit Nils shooting, say, Canik. I'd say yes.   Gear matters

Edited September 30, 2019 by cheby

[motosapiens]

15 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Based on Nat's results 2011's don't appear to have a provable advantage over glocks in limited either. Other then adding weight(offset by recoil) and capacity, a Limited glock and a production glock are the same.

 

good point. Of course I prefer shooting a 2011 over a crappy plastic POS, but the things that make a difference in divisions are things other than being able to do minor mods to your gun.

[motosapiens]

8 minutes ago, cheby said:

The question is not that Nils or any other better shooters shooting any gun would win.

The real question is if Nils shooting, say, Shadow 2 would bit Nils shooting, say, Canik. I'd say yes.   Gear matters

 

so you think nils intentionally uses inferior equipment for money? 

[MikeBurgess]

The question is not that Nils or any other better shooters shooting any gun would win.
The real question is if Nils shooting, say, Shadow 2 would bit Nils shooting, say, Canik. I'd say yes.   Gear matters

I say no he doesn't beat himself any more with one gun or the other to mean anything.

Gear that runs matters, everything else is just preferance

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[cheby]

29 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

so you think nils intentionally uses inferior equipment for money? 

Money talks

[ddc]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

...Gear wise limited and production don't seem that much different, take away the 10 round capacity just makes them that much more similar...

 

So there is not that much difference between for example a Gray Gun's slicked up X5 (a rather racy Prod gun) and a slicked up 2011 with a SA trigger at whatever 1.x# trigger pull weight suits your fancy?

 

[happygunner77]

Production is great where it is. People just need to learn to change mags. Or go to limited if one doesn't like changing mags. It's really simple as that. 

[Steppenwolf]

 I just read this thread. For those that have not, the following dialog from Monty Python and the Holy Grail is more entertaining and gets to the point quicker.

      [wind]

      [clop clop]

  ARTHUR:  Whoa there!

      [clop clop]

  GUARD #1:  Halt!  Who goes there?

  ARTHUR:  It is I, Arthur, son of Uther Pendragon, from the castle

of Camelot.  King of the Britons, defeator of the Saxons, sovereign

of all England!

  GUARD #1:  Pull the other one!

  ARTHUR:  I am.  And this my trusty servant Patsy.

      We have ridden the length and breadth of the land in search of knights

who will join me in my court of Camelot.  I must speak with your lord

and master.

  GUARD #1:  What, ridden on a horse?

  ARTHUR:  Yes!

  GUARD #1:  You're using coconuts!

  ARTHUR:  What?

  GUARD #1:  You've got two empty halves of coconut and you're bangin'

  'em together.

  ARTHUR:  So?  We have ridden since the snows of winter covered this

land, through the kingdom of Mercea, through--

  GUARD #1:  Where'd you get the coconut?

  ARTHUR:  We found them.

  GUARD #1:  Found them?  In Mercea?  The coconut's tropical!

  ARTHUR:  What do you mean?

  GUARD #1:  Well, this is a temperate zone.

  ARTHUR:  The swallow may fly south with the sun or the house martin

or the plumber may seek warmer climes in winter yet these are not

strangers to our land.

  GUARD #1:  Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

  ARTHUR:  Not at all, they could be carried.

  GUARD #1:  What -- a swallow carrying a coconut?

  ARTHUR:  It could grip it by the husk!

  GUARD #1:  It's not a question of where he grips it!  It's a simple

question of weight ratios!  A five ounce bird could not carry a 1 pound

coconut.

  ARTHUR:  Well, it doesn't matter.  Will you go and tell your master

that Arthur from the Court of Camelot is here.

  GUARD #1:  Listen, in order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow

needs to beat its wings 43 times every second, right?

  ARTHUR:  Please!

  GUARD #1:  Am I right?

  ARTHUR:  I'm not interested!

  GUARD #2:  It could be carried by an African swallow!

  GUARD #1:  Oh, yeah, an African swallow maybe, but not a European

swallow, that's my point.

  GUARD #2:  Oh, yeah, I agree with that...

  ARTHUR:  Will you ask your master if he wants to join my court

  at Camelot?!

  GUARD #1:  But then of course African swallows are not migratory.

  GUARD #2:  Oh, yeah...

  GUARD #1:  So they couldn't bring a coconut back anyway...

      [clop clop]

  GUARD #2:  Wait a minute -- supposing two swallows carried it together?

  GUARD #1:  No, they'd have to have it on a line.

  GUARD #2:  Well, simple!  They'd just use a standard creeper!

  GUARD #1:  What, held under the dorsal guiding feathers?

  GUARD #2:  Well, why not?

[Racinready300ex]

15 hours ago, ddc said:

 

So there is not that much difference between for example a Gray Gun's slicked up X5 (a rather racy Prod gun) and a slicked up 2011 with a SA trigger at whatever 1.x# trigger pull weight suits your fancy?

 

 

Minor difference in trigger pull doesn't really matter much but it's there, magwell capacity, scoring. change the capacity and it'll just be the magwell and major scoring. I keep reading posts about making limited minor, then it'll just be the magwell and a few oz's of trigger pull. At some point they become the same division.

 

[Agent #1911]

All of a sudden we care about “other people’s participation” in the division when in reality, its “I”, the complainer’s participation. leave production alone and shoot in LTD minor. Why restrict yourself with 15 rounds?. Its kind of like asking “can we please add the Q in LGBT so I can fit in?”.

 

 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Agent #1911

[shred]

We should just remove the mandatory dot requirement in CO.  It's silly and then there's a nice handy load-em-up all-Minor division right there.

 

[motosapiens]

13 minutes ago, Agent #1911 said:

All of a sudden we care about “other people’s participation” in the division when in reality, its “I”, the complainer’s participation. leave production alone and shoot in LTD minor. Why restrict yourself with 15 rounds?. Its kind of like asking “can we please add the Q in LGBT so I can fit in?”.

 

 

 

Are you saying production is the Q? or glocks are the Q? Either way, it's hard not to agree.

[TrackCage]

1 hour ago, shred said:

We should just remove the mandatory dot requirement in CO.  It's silly and then there's a nice handy load-em-up all-Minor division right there.

 

This is a far more interesting topic, right here.

 

Doesn't the legend go that USPSA brass added the dot requirement for fear that Stoeger would win the first carry optics title w/o a dot gun? I heard this second hand, so don't know for sure.

Edited October 1, 2019 by TrackCage

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, shred said:

We should just remove the mandatory dot requirement in CO.  It's silly and then there's a nice handy load-em-up all-Minor division right there.

 

 

this makes sense to me. it also means if your optic goes down, you wouldn't be screwed.

 

the only reason we have a dot requirement is stoeger was trolling and threatened to win the first CO nats with his production gun. Now that it's become clear that CO is a huge advantage over production (pretty comparable to limited based on nationals results) there's no reason to be scared of stoeger mocking the division.